Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[Dave Patten]

Brian,
Thanks for the cost breakdown of an event at LRP. This “real world” cost information is what a typical driver needs to understand. Track rental is the single biggest cost, but the other expenses are what complete the event and make it happen.

It’s like renting your first place, yah the rental is the biggest bill, but you still need heat, electricity, water & sewer, telephone, cable, etc to make it a place to live.

[lateapex911]

Dan, the above post is a great insight into the workings of the area, and the difficulty in getting a track built.

If I read Daves post corrrectly, the area the track is located in has no zoning, but the opposition is such that the project is going into it's (I think) 4th year...and no pavement has been laid for the track.

I can't help but wonder what the business model is....how can such a project turn a profit?

To me, this one seems to be a battle of wills, with reasoning and profit as secondary considerations.

Dave, correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC, this track won't help ease the track congestion for SCCA directly as the agreed upon noise limits are way below what SCCA could meet. Am I correct on that?

It could, however, add club dates, and possibly steal business form Lime Rock and NHIS in that regard, but, it is hours of travel further from Lime Rock for the drivers in the all important NYC region that Lime Rock serves, so that aspect will be minimal.

Assuming of course, that the project comes on line at any point in the future.

[Mattberg]

Greg,

If I'm so off base, please enlighten us as to the progress of Palmer. To not hear one word of news in over a year is more than suspect. I know you're hoping for the best, as am I, but you do have to plan for the worst. I'm sorry if opining analysis and assesment of a business based on what's available upsets you but I call em' like I see em'. You can cry foul but better to offer up something material. Why not ask Dick what the status is. He's been sort of quiet here considering he's the point man. Another bad indicator. Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. Who better to ask?

And Russ, I've built and developed more than twenty million square feet of commercial and residential property and facilities. I know what's involved before, during and after. From geologicals to financing. From my experience it looks to me as though Palmer has either over estimated their ability to push the deal through to permit, not paid off the right people or simply run out of money. A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble.

What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.

I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000? Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business? $4000 in party stuff? $600 for favors? If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. $1200 for a board fee? NARRC, NYRRC, etc fees? It's all going to the same place. It's just dressed up differently to justify it. THere are so many hands in the pot trying to derive cash for their little peice of the club it's frightening. Pork. I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong. Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though.

I recently read that the Pro Solo portion of an autocross event was FREE. No entry fee was charged. Who do you think paid for that? There's still an insurance charge for the event. Who paid for that? We're still paying for solo's liability insurance on top of that. You think that $32 per driver is going entirely to road racing? Get real. Start questioning the finances and stop supporting these regional officials as hero volunteers. They're not. Some of them are even criminals. YES, criminals. Soloist Carly Chupta ring a bell? How quickly we forget... They're guys pursuing their hobby just like us. But they need money and they need votes. In this case the money doesn't have the votes. Racers don't get officials elected. Run a pro racer platform and you lose. The system is broken. Officials are buying votes by NOT cracking down on this reassignment of revenue or speaking out about it. If they did, they wouldn't get elected and their hobby of being "in charge" and in control would go away. Until you see that get ready to shell out more and more every year in supporting those non-racing programs that keep officials and the voting majority happy.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Matt, being on the finance committee for PMP and BOD, as the treasurer, I can tell you that Palmer Motorsports Park is not dead. In fact, we are getting very close to submitting the permits to the town. We are not talking it up because we are in the process of talking to investors and at this stage it is very critical to keep quiet.

That's it! Please don't read silence as being a bad thing per se.

[Greg Amy]

(Why oh why oh why do I let myself get into these pissing matches...??)

To not hear one word of news in over a year is more than suspect.[/b]

Matt, you're ignorant, in the truest sense of the word.

- The committees spent a couple of hours at our regional convention this past January giving us all a detailed update on the progress. Without wasting a lot of my time explaining the details to you (I've got a graduate presentation tonight and, believe it or not, that's a bit higher on my priority list than you are) it's moving along quite nicely. Shockingly so.
- On a personal level, I have direct contacts with several of the folks directly involved in this track progress, and I'm personally satisfied that it's moving along. In fact, I'd even consider becoming an investor, given the opportunity.

Now, if we're to subscribe to the "Mattberg is the center of the universe" theory, then we can only conclude that since Mattberg isn't aware of the facts, then the facts don't exist. Well, pretty much everyone - except one person - doesn't subscribe to that.

Rest assured that if ignorance is truly bliss, you're one happy moth*****ker.

Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. :D Who better to ask?[/b]

Mr Bliss, I do speak with Dick, on a regular basis. And the reason Dick is not "all over you now" is because he is a much higher class person than I and he, too, has much more important things to worry about than keeping Mattberg informed.

You really, really, really have some issues to get resolved...

[bg43wex]

Some missing items:

2% fee from the Region board of directors - $1,300
This races share of the road racing board's operational costs - about $4,000
Money earmarked for new track development - ????

Operational expenses are those things not directly related to a single race, yet are expenses that must be covered. For example:

Year end trophies
Phone bills
Photo IDs
Radio equipment and service (F&C net and Stewards net)
Tech Equipment
Fire extinguisher servicing
Sound control equipment and service (yearly calibration)
Emergency services equipment and service
Postage
Printing
Timing and scoring equipment and supply.
F&C School and Fire School

So, it looks like Brian's numbers are more like 10% low, and that doesn't include anything for new track development.
[/b]

Actually Dave my #'s are correct, the items you mention come out of our total opperations budget which you and I know is based on us turning a profit at each event.

[lateapex911]

Greg,

IWhy not ask Dick what the status is. He's been sort of quiet here considering he's the point man. Another bad indicator. Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. Who better to ask?
[/b]

Ever heard the term "Less is more"

What the Palmer project needs is the right people doing the right things at the right time, and publicity is NOT needed. I trust our point men to do the right thing, and they will go public at the right time. I expect you will retort by calling me a fool, which will actually make me feel better for my decision.

. ..........A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble. [/b]

Typical Mattberger comment here. Shoot mouth off with ZERO knowledge of actual facts. Which is why I suspect every last utterance that comes from your mouth as a complete waste of air and time. I actually know the topic you speak of, and you clearly do not.

What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. .... Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.[/b]

Thanks for the advice, Mr Weisberg...but tell us, what can be done, in REAL terms, real numbers based on REAL facts, to significanlty help the situation? And, what have you DONE...actually DONE , working withIN the SCCA on a regional level that will cause us to have ANY faith in your suggestions???. And don't spout your paranoid conclusions about buddies in the trophy business! Where'd you come up with the "24 trophies for $1000 dollars" conclusion? Seems to me that there are a lot more than 24 trophies given out at a normal regional....

Again, don't spount...do homework and report back with REAL numbers. The ones you've alluded to are not working in your favor. :

I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000? Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business? [/b]

....see above ...

$4000 in party stuff? [/b]

What part of "mandated by contract" don't you understand?

$600 for favors? If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. [/b]

Nice misleading example....favors includes huundreds of items that go to workers who stand in the heat and rain to drag our cars out of the mud after we bonehead a shift, like umbrellas and such. Listen, you spin it to make it sound like the regional officials in this area are buying themselves Brooks Brothers suits! For once in your life, shut up, listen, get real facts and THEN spout your mouth...

THere are so many hands in the pot trying to derive cash for their little peice of the club it's frightening. Pork. I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong.[/b]

Oh? Better to give the business to a non buddy who could charge more?

Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though. [/b]

Yea, the what was it, a dollar? It really broke everyone's bank. I didn't race that season due to the extra expense. Seriously, sure, maybe somebody made a little money selling some silly little item, but honestly, is THAT the issue with Lime Rock! OF COURSE not! Point denied, move on.....

I recently read that the Pro Solo portion of an autocross event was FREE. No entry fee was charged. Who do you think paid for that? .......bla bla bla bla ...my ears are bleeding... bal bla ....get ready to shell out more and more every year in supporting those non-racing programs that keep officials and the voting majority happy.[/b]

Back to the discussion ....and no more spewing about your current obsession, the evil autocross empire....... make your case, make it about THIS situation, and back it up with the REAL numbers, just like they made you do in Junior high School. Actually take the time and open your mind and ears to determine IF the favor expenses, for examle really ARE a waste, and if they represent a significant item. If you do, MAYbe somebody will listen, but at this point, your wecome matt and your credibility are so thin that nobody but historians can find them...

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have no problem with people questioning the establishment but geez Matt, if this is how you 'attack' other issues you have 'championed', you have lost even more credibility. You have no facts yet you spew like you have been involved since day 1. Bleh.

[dickita15]

Ok Matt you drew me out. As Jeremy and Greg said Palmer is progressing. We have had delays but NO bad news. The town remains supportive. We have another hearing in less than two weeks. Got good news this morning. The endangered species survey was done and we are clean. This survey can only be done at this time of year. As Greg said a full presentation was given at NER’s annual meeting with budgets, pictures and detailed plans. A few weeks late we gave the same presentation to VSCCA at their request.
This is not a slam dunk but I am very optimistic. The reason I am not going around on the web about this project is that does nothing to move the project forward.
In your big pile of crap above you got one paragraph right.

What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.

[/b]

[bg43wex]

Greg,

If I'm so off base, please enlighten us as to the progress of Palmer. [/b]

just yesterday the NER BoD met and was preparing to send you a personized windshirt with all the palmer updates embroidered on it

And Russ, I've built and developed more than twenty million square feet of commercial and residential property and facilities. I know what's involved before, during and after. From geologicals to financing. From my experience it looks to me as though Palmer has either over estimated their ability to push the deal through to permit, not paid off the right people or simply run out of money. A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble. [/b]

So, let me get this straight you are in favor of pay off's to obtain permiting on projects that "you have developed" very interesting

What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand. [/b]

Your Mentor, who is that? P.T. Barnum or Ron Pohpeil ( Matt always remember just set it and forget it )

I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000?[/b]

24 trophies? we have the potential of 42 classes at a regional race and some even have enough competition for second, third and fourth place trophies. How about closer to 100 trophies, but what would you know about it anyway?

Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business?[/b]

DOUCHE BAG

$4000 in party stuff? $600 for favors? [/b]

Must purchase food from LRP it's in the contract. but you don't care, contracts mean nothing to you.

If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. [/b]

Sorry Bunky not in NER, no event specific trinkets in 4 years, but of course you already knew that.

EOY is the only time we hand out embroidered merchandise.

$1200 for a board fee? NARRC, NYRRC, etc fees? It's all going to the same place. [/b]

Where? the NARRC points and EOY trophy fund? I believe the class winners recieve this cash and awards.

I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. [/b]

What a surprise something upset you, did the buck blow your whole race budget?

The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong. Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though. [/b]

Yup, that was the whole scam you figured it out. can you help us with the linberg baby mystery when you get a second?

people call me Sarcastic, but man you take the cake. I hope your blow up doll doesn't leave, because then you wouldn't have anyone to agree with you.

and always remember never let the facts get in the way of one of your arguments. (they never have before)

[Ed Funk]

Brian, try to say what you really feel!!

My expertise as a veterinarian may be of value here, think about euthanasia as an option---then we can find Matts dog a good home! Never met the guy, but I wish he'd walk up and introduce himself sometime, there's always room for one more asshat in my collection.

[Dave Patten]

I like the new Brian Mushnick.

You strip away the official positions and titles and what do you get, true first amendment speech and some released rage!

Way to go Brian, PC is WAYYYY overrated!


Talk about a thread going off topic!

NHIS has a volunteer group as well; they call them “Ambassadors”. I’d bet this is the same type of volunteers that LRP is looking for. These people “work” the Pro events as escorts or guides for VIP’s, politicians and sponsor type people. They take them around the facility and show them the “behind the scenes” operation at the race track. If you have ever been to a NASCAR race at NHIS these are the guys in the red jackets.

[Butch Kummer]

Ain't the internet wonderful? We really ought to take up a collection and pay Matt fair market value for the entertainment he brings to our lives every day. And I heard that Barry Hair is the legal representation for both Lime Rock Park AND the RE's brother-in-law that runs the trophy shop, but then I can't divulge my sources of that information.

Jake was correct. The secession of CFR from the ECR (and SEDIV) is yesterday's news but Matt just keeps on keeping on. Hang in there guys, he'll get tired soon enough of resolving all of NEDIV's obvious shortcomings and decide take on Alaska Region's soon-to-be-announced plan to have Club Racers fund their budding snowmobile autocross series.

[RSTPerformance]

The above conversations are very informative for the most part and I want to thank all those whom have given input, or "eased" my anger at the situation... I guess thats one thing that is great is that sometimes we vent and a lot of people come to the rescue and give you the other view... Sorry Matt I didn't read your post, as at this point I don't think I am worried about the decision that the Northeast regions are making when spending the cash, especially on the "other" expences not included in track rental. IMO the only expence that catches my eye and needs fixing is the Lime Rock track rental. It would be nice if someone from Lime Rock gave input on why they feel the need to charge so much for these days. Is that track in that much trouble?

Now with all that behind me I am trying to look forward as others have in this thread so let me think outside the box a bit with alternate options... and see what people think?

From what I have gathered; With Lime Rock as expensive as it is, some people (like myself) will not pay that much to race, thus this could result in lower than normal entries, and at some point the regions will start loosing money. From what I understand this is a more seriose issue for the smaller regions whom depend on the Lime Rock events to try and break even at the year end. This means that this entire issue has a huge effect on some of the regions. Most of the drivers probably could care less about the politics and could care less what region is running an event as long as it is SCCA as a whole, however thier is that select group in each region that makes the entire thing possible who does care for thier individual regions success. IMO the regions in trouble and/or the regions whom will be most successful need to start thinking now how to re-alighn themselves as this is only going to get worse over the next few years.

Possible solution? Why don't we run a couple muffled events (Be it a new track in Tamworth or at Lime Rock)? Other clubs/organizations are successfully running muffled events, why can't we?

• SCCA PDX events have proven successful with a following of people and it can generate a profit to help supliment other events (Be it Road Racing, Rally, or Solo).
• In addition to PDX events, I hate to leave out Big Big bore and open wheel cars, but why not have a restriced regional??? All the IT cars at a minimum could run muffled and we could have a very full restricted regional for all the classes that would be able to run muffled cars. Sure some may argue that it would cost over $89 to install a new mufler, but go to the junk yard or use the one you saved that you stripped off the car when it came with one...

Just trying to think outside the box... and we all know that eventually here in the Northeast we will all be running with mufflers... All the neihbors seem very noise sensative no matter where we go to play.

Any other ideas outside the norm for us here in the Northeast?


Raymond "How much is a muffled event at Lime Rock?" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Raymond, in answer to your question, "Why does Lime Rock charge so much?"....because they can.........

They seem to have no trouble filling the calender. It's pure supply and demand.

And it's not about the mufflers..or it's not JUST about the mufflers. The unmuffled dates DO bring a premium, but it's also about RACING. Events like PDAs, and Audi club lapping days have much different rules...and Lime Rock apparently likes that better. We race, and with that, we tear up equipmant and the facilty on occasion. There are costs associated with that, and Lime Rock uses that to justify the extra expense.

Simply, the NY metro region has a lot of money. That wealth brings with it cars. Sports cars and people who want to drive them. So, with a lot of people wanting to do lapping days and marque events, Lime Rock is in the enviable position of essentially having a monopoly on the local market.

When you hold all the cards, you can be king.

[Doc Bro]

Dick,

I'm happy to hear of the progress of PMP. I think this will be very positive for the region. I personally comend you and all others involved for the many hours spent making it happen. I think you need a turn or short chute or something named in your honor when all is done.


Matt,

Thanks for being our "every crowds got one" guy. It really takes some big ones to spend the amount of time you spend trying to offend everyone. Your 20+ million s.f. deals might be beleivable if you didn't waste so much time indulging youself on this BB. I know lots of folks who do what you claim to do, frankly you don't seem to fit the mold. I'll call your bluff.....big hat, no cattle.

R

[dj10]

Dan,
Leave Boston alone it's not a bad town....Hartford..now thaaaat's another story. I once won a contest and the Grand Prize was a week vacation in Hartford....second place was two weeks!!!!

Hartford would make a great race track. "New Englands rising star"....what a joke.

R [/b]

Doc I can't see putting a race course in a state that is smaller than most peoples farms here in PA. Maybe we should level all the houses in a 10 mile radius around Bridgehampton and bring that great track back from the dead. Oh and while were at it lets put in a super highway for bridgehampton traffic only from the NE, W and S. That should eliminate a few more homes and people that bitched about one of the greatest tracks ever.

[lateapex911]

Dan Jones for President! Maybe Dan Gurney can be convinced to join as your running mate!

[gran racing]

Nothing new being said here - PDX on Friday, Race on Sat. Why not?

As Jake said, there are many people in the Lime Rock area that have $$$$. How many Lotus', new Corvettes, and other expensive cars were there at the SCDA Glen event this weekend? Lots. For what it's worth, many HPDEs are charging $300 + for a muffled HPDE day at LRP. They sell out quickly and often don't allow people to register early to allow everyone an opportunity to stake their claim. Now only if I could find that money tree farm!

[RKramden]

How many Lotus', new Corvettes, and other expensive cars were there at the SCDA Glen event this weekend? Lots.[/b]

In all fairness, SCDA puts on a much better show than I have ever seen any SCCA region do for a HPDE. They have first class (or better) events that make most others look like newbies. They run like clockwork, and the track time you get leaves you exhausted at the end of the day, enough so that it is a concern that you are getting too tired to do a good job driving. They are 100% focused on providing a quality experience for their customers, not focused on running an HPDE event "per the book" like some SCCA regions. SCCA runs great race events, but it looks like they try to run their HPDE events like races, and it doesn't always work. There is a lesson there, but many SCCA hard core folks don't want to hear it.

(I'm not 'dising SCCA, but saying what a great job SCDA does. I've been a SCCA member for over 25 years. I've never been a SCDA customer, but they have paid me to flag a few of their events.)

If you want to have the **best** HPDE then you need to do better than SCDA. IMHO, they currently set the bar for quality HPDE events.