Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[pfcs49]

Perhaps we could emulate EMRA. Circa 1980: "Organized Open Practice". Early Tuesday morning, EMRAs zany cadre of grassroots racers convene at LRP, including officials, timing/scoring, and flaggers. Entry is dirt-cheap, the going rate for an open practice/test day ($75?). There is a little initial confusion when we want to put our flaggers on station when LRP already has their own, but the track relents when we explain that we need to "practice" flagging. The 5 or 6 SCCA types are suprised to see such an eclectic mix of cars that stay out the whole first (practice)session and do the same the nest (qualifying) one. We didn't figure the track would be too sanguine if we "practiced" a start, so I, as polesitter, paced the field around to No-Name where we had our start. A good day of racing, unmuffled, and quite economical. EMRA didn't even buy any insurance as I recollect. After the race, an SCCA guy came over and wanted to know why we seemed to be so competetive on track-he's probably still wondering! Phil

[Dave Patten]

Here let me throw this one out. I don’t know the dollar or schedule impact, but just another idea for discussion.

The attendance at the NHIS National is generally quite low. The Pocono National is even worse and they have gone to a Double National format to raise attendance. Why not take the PDX on Monday of Memorial Day at NHIS, move it to LRP on a Friday to cut track rental cost and use the Saturday of that LRP weekend to do a one day Regional to reduce the track rental/entry fees. With the loss of one NEDIV National race at LRP in 2007, add a second National at NHIS by making Memorial Day a Double National which will help attract more attendance and bring the number of Nationals in Division back to the earlier level. Then move the Memorial Day Regional to the early May weekend that was the NHIS National. Also consider using LRP Fridays for non race activities, ie PDX, Schools, Time Trial.

Quick re-cap.
- PDX at LRP on a Friday not NHIS on Memorial Day, lower costs for track rental PDX v. Race @ LRP.
- One day Regional at LRP the Saturday following the PDX, one day track rental not two for the race.
- Move NHIS Regional from Memorial Day to the current National date in early May.
- Change Memorial Day from a 2 day Regional and a PDX to a 3 day, Double National.

The only other real way that I can see cutting costs for races at LRP is to use the Friday as a "non" race day (PDX, School or Time Trial) and only pay race rental for Saturday, making the LRP Regionals all one day races.

This is just an idea(s); I’m sure smarter logisticians than I have already thought of this and “Busted” the myth that it is viable.

[dickita15]

While I appreciate your thinking Dave, there are three problems I see with you suggestion.
1. To run a double national you need permission of the other regions in the division. A 75% vote is required. I believe the only reason Poccono is so endowed is the perception that the double is the only way a region can survive putting on a national there. Poccono also had the advantage of being in the center of the division. NER’s NHIS program is not perceived as threatened and the rest of the regions would not vote to bestow such an opportunity on the big region.
2. NER has no Fridays available except the one with the driver’s school at LRP. NER does a service running the school.
3. The Memorial Day triple regional is new last year and was a big success with regional racers and fills a hole in the NARRC schedule. I would not be willing to diminish the racing for the regional racers who support the region to help the National racers that do not.

[Dave Patten]

Like I said, those smarter than me.

NER does a school and a one day LRP Regional. Maybe it is a format, although not popular one with drivers due to reduced track time, that the other LRP using Regions need to explore to make their entry fees more "palletable" to entrants. It looks like MoHud will find out if the $399 entry amount is beyond the threshold that some drivers are willing to pay. I hope their event is a financial success. No group deserves to take a beating finacially after all the effort put forward to put on an SCCA roadrace.

I agree that a $89 entry fee increase is small in comparison to the whole event costs, but it may be the point where driver's start to question the return on their dollar. I towed to Summit Point in April. I had no idea of what I put into the tow vehicle for gas, dollarwise, until Exxon refused my credit card under their "fraud" policy for too many uses in too many states. The total gas bill was over $650.

[gran racing]

2. NER has no Fridays available except the one with the driver’s school at LRP. NER does a service running the school. [/b]

Just another benefit to Palmer coming - hopefully we can see a more defined "this region has these tracks and that region has those".

Dave, using the Friday PDX to help subsidize a Sat. race day is a good idea (I too thought that). Maybe LRP would reduce the weekend fee since it would be a HPDE on Friday vs. a race day?

[dickita15]

Dave, using the Friday PDX to help subsidize a Sat. race day is a good idea (I too thought that). Maybe LRP would reduce the weekend fee since it would be a HPDE on Friday vs. a race day?
[/b]

yes the rent would be cheaper if we only ran a PDX.

[Wreckerboy]

....Snip

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond
[/b]

Raymond -

Sorry to get to this particular party so late.

I'm "the EMRA guy" Jake referred to a few pages back (even though I used to hold a SCCA regional license, EMRA has been my racing home for 19 seasons now). EMRA pays the same horrific rates that the SCCA does for LRP for our race days. For our Time Trial days we pay a slightly discounted rate, equivalent to what the marque clubs pay because we have very limited passing. Lime Rock does not give us any special deal. We're there in October this year because we chose to take advantage of the "off season" rates that are in place after (I think) September. At least ten years ago we had managed to get one of the unmuffled days, but haven't had one since. We run to the same restrictive dB requirements that everyone else faces.

I've been following this thread with interest because we face the same problems as your much larger organization faces. In fact, during last year's event we had an huge amount of rain and had something like 23 cars show up on race day. EMRA is a not for profit organization, and certainly lived up to those standards that day. Just like many of the smaller regions cited in these sorts of threads, a few events like that and we might cease to exist.

Interestingly, our Time Trial days at LRP are always well subscribed and usually have waiting lists. Just like Matt Rove, we're looking at what our customers want, and what we can do to to attract more. At LRP it seems to be a classic case of supply and demand.

Our insurance costs are as stratospheric as the next guy, but we do have an advantage in that we don't have to pay the "Mattberg Black Helicopters Fuel Fund to get our event specific golf shirts delivered."

WB
Grateful to be 100% Mattberg free!

Perhaps we could emulate EMRA. Circa 1980: "Organized Open Practice". Early Tuesday morning, EMRAs zany cadre of grassroots racers convene at LRP, including officials, timing/scoring, and flaggers. Entry is dirt-cheap, the going rate for an open practice/test day ($75?). There is a little initial confusion when we want to put our flaggers on station when LRP already has their own, but the track relents when we explain that we need to "practice" flagging. The 5 or 6 SCCA types are suprised to see such an eclectic mix of cars that stay out the whole first (practice)session and do the same the nest (qualifying) one. We didn't figure the track would be too sanguine if we "practiced" a start, so I, as polesitter, paced the field around to No-Name where we had our start. A good day of racing, unmuffled, and quite economical. EMRA didn't even buy any insurance as I recollect. After the race, an SCCA guy came over and wanted to know why we seemed to be so competetive on track-he's probably still wondering! Phil
[/b]

Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!

[JohnRW]

Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!
[/b]

...and Jell-O shots, too.

[RSTPerformance]

Rob-

Thanks for the reply... Looks like things are equal, and Lime Rock is just going to be a premier place to race. Those that can afford (and thier are plenty) will enjoy. those whom can't, well come to the other tracks and enjoy the races... but forget about running for the NARRC championship.

I do hope we stay at Lime Rock, simply for the sake it hosts a lot of great races, and a lot of people can afford it, so we will get numbers no matter how expensive it gets.

Raymond

[RKramden]

Back to the topic.....

I had a chat with someone today about the LRP "Club". Seems they had a big meeting with the track last week.

LRP is looking for people to drive golf carts and provide shuttle services for the big name pro racers, or staff their information booth and try to sell stuff to the fans, etc.

For the privilege of being able to volunteer to work for the track, the track will charge club members only $50 per year. That is to cover the cost of those fantastic "bag lunches" that the track will be giving you each day you spent 10 or more hours working for them. If you have ever had the ham or "smoked turkey" bag lunches, you would know what a fantastic offer this really is.

Understand that this is exactly the same types of jobs that NHIS PAYS people to do during Cup Weekends. And there, you might actually meet a race car driver who's name is recognized by more than 16 people in the whole world.

It seems that LRP management is now going to even greater lengths than anyone could have ever guessed to really piss off their hard core fans, along with their regular fans, as well as their customers.

Maybe the current track management is really trying to get all the money they can before going out of business. It sure looks like they are working very hard to cause paying customers to not come back.

[Greg Amy]

Uh, wow. Just...wow.

[Doc Bro]

WOW, Insightful post Dave.

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". It seems to go well with the current...err......"thinking"


R

As far as I'm concerned LRP is a PITA.....repave it and I'd be more interested in the politics.

[Andy Bettencourt]

pave it and I'd be more interested in the politics. [/b]

Lime Rock is bumpy? :P

[RacerBill]

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". It seems to go well with the current...err......"thinking"

[/b]

"valet"? To do what? Hose down the urinal walls?

I did get a big kick out of the concession stands that sell wine (or was that whine?)

But every track has it's local flavor. Do you know that there are signs posted at Texas Motor Speedway reminding you that it is against the law to take guns into the suites, and rifles into the stands! And, yes, there were shots fired at our crew one year when we were picking up the timing and scoring equipment in the infield after a night race!

Thread returned to original topic!

[alfa]

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". [/b]

Are they gone?

On second thought, maybe that's what the new volunteers will be doing.

[16v]

On second thought, maybe that's what the new volunteers will be doing.
[/b]

peeing on the walls?

[Eric Parham]

Maybe the current track management is really trying to get all the money they can before going out of business. It sure looks like they are working very hard to cause paying customers to not come back.
[/b]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy. Keep in mind that the track is at a tremendous disadvantage due to the church that moved in next door to null out half of almost every potentially profitable weekend. Nice in some respects I suppose, but terrible for business. If we're going to even contemplate conspiracy, consider how much easier it would be for one to infiltrate the other rather than vise-versa.

[lateapex911]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy. Keep in mind that the track is at a tremendous disadvantage due to the church that moved in next door to null out half of almost every potentially profitable weekend. Nice in some respects I suppose, but terrible for business. If we're going to even contemplate conspiracy, consider how much easier it would be for one to infiltrate the other rather than vise-versa. [/b]

The church, interestingly, actually predates the race car circuit by over 50 years. it was built in the late 1800s, and designed by a famous NY architect, in response to local desires to have a church, believe it or not, close to where the locals spent a good bit of time on the weekends...the horse racing track. Even stranger, back in the late 1800s, THAT track was located right about where the current skidpack is sited.

Nevertheless, the church and the surrounding buildings and houses (all built to support local industry of the 1800s) predated the actual track built by Jim Vail by over 50 years. The town voted to support the building of the track, but after two years of operation, in 1959, the church was succesful in pushing the injunction through which limited racing to Saturdays, the number of unmuffled days to 10, and the hours of race engine operation to 9AM to 6PM.

Recently, IIRC, Lime Rock attemped to modify that agreement, and wanted to trade certain elements in exchange for certain Sundays. I don't know what the resolution of that action was, but I presume it fell on deaf ears.

[RKramden]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy.
[/b]

It was my understanding that it was the other way around. That is, the racing school had a multi year fixed price contract for the days they rented the track that gave them a rate far below market for those days. So, the other clubs who rented the track had to make up the difference.

[lateapex911]

That was my understanding as well.When Skip owned both, his "contract" with, essentially, himself, was friendly towards the school. perhaps in an effort to help sell the school. Somehow, that rate continues.

It does appear however, that the market is strong and they seem to be able to fill the calender ....I wonder when the current Barber contract runs out, and whether they will be able to negotiate a new one that they can afford. Remember, they own a significant building in town that they operate out of.