SARRC/MARRS VIR

[JimW337]

Another perspective from the "back of the pack". I much prefered Saturday's start to Sunday's. Even though on Saturday everybody was strung out playing catch up, Sunday was close to a disaster. Bumper to bumper 5 cars wide, jumping on the braks, grabbing second gear and this was in the middle of the front straight! Then it got even worse at Oak Tree. The only difference, 3 cars wide and people punting each other off the track with waving yellow's, like you could pass anybody anyway.

In my noobie-rookie opinon, I think the problem was too may cars and to little patients. I've never heard of a race won in the first lap, but I sure saw a lot of people loose their race in the first lap. That's OK, becasue evertime I saw someone off track, chaa-ching, I just moved up a position.

Jim

[Knestis]

What Bowie said. The issue was that a LOT of people didn't get their own stuff together and get the heck in line. I was nearly last on the grid on Sat (number mix-up meant I wasn't on the grid sheet!) and a guy three rows in front of me was merrily weaving back and forth up the back straight (RX7) right up to the point where Cameron called GREEN GREEN GREEN on the radio...

...when I was braking for the top of Rollercoaster! I passed 8 cars or so before we even got to SF and actually saw the flag.

K

[lateapex911]

Which speaks to the importance of having a radio and somebody to talk to you on it....

[Knestis]

>> Using the old - if the car in front of you is stopped, he is part of the incident rule...

You bet. I took to the inside grass in T1/T2 to avoid (among other things) a sideways RX7, and drove completely around to the chute before NASCAR. I don't think I gained any positions relative to the drivers who went around the outside of the schlmozzle but by the same token, I sure didn't LOSE any.

K

[grjones1]

Hoop,
At leaast I think it is Hoop who was complaining.

I am the driver of ITC 22, and I remember the start quite well. We were gapped way back from the mid- pack as I recall mainly because at least some people in front of me failed to keep up when we left from the false grid and yes by the time we were at the end of the uphill esses, many of us were at 9/10s trying to catch the pack on the pace lap. Still there were those who were lollygagging.

If when we finally got to hogpen you had looked to your right, you would have seen a corner worker (sharp, heads-up individual whoever he was) giving us a green flag signal, i.e., he was moving his arm in a figure 8 motion to let us backmarkers know the green had been dropped. The race had begun. That's when I nailed it. We are not NASCAR! We do not have to wait until we cross start finish to begin racing - we race when the flag drops, regardless of where we are on the track. I did not jump the start; I paid attention to what was going on so I could gain as much as I could with what was given me.

Before you start throwing mud, make sure you know what your're talking about, and report it accurately, and no, the stewarts saw nothing wrong with my start, because there was nothing wriong with my start.

And I love the large groups - always somebody to race with even when you have half a transmission halfway through the race.

:P

[iambhooper]

Hoop,
At leaast I think it is Hoop who was complaining.

I am the driver of ITC 22, and I remember the start quite well. We were gapped way back from the mid- pack as I recall mainly because at least some people in front of me failed to keep up when we left from the false grid and yes by the time we were at the end of the uphill esses, many of us were at 9/10s trying to catch the pack on the pace lap. Still there were those who were lollygagging.

If when we finally got to hogpen you had looked to your right, you would have seen a corner worker (sharp, heads-up individual whoever he was) giving us a green flag signal, i.e., he was moving his arm in a figure 8 motion to let us backmarkers know the green had been dropped. The race had begun. That's when I nailed it. We are not NASCAR! We do not have to wait until we cross start finish to begin racing - we race when the flag drops, regardless of where we are on the track. I did not jump the start; I paid attention to what was going on so I could gain as much as I could with what was given me.

Before you start throwing mud, make sure you know what your're talking about, and report it accurately, and no, the stewarts saw nothing wrong with my start, because there was nothing wriong with my start.

And I love the large groups - always somebody to race with even when you have half a transmission halfway through the race.

:P
[/b]

I don't remember which car 22 was, but I'm going to assume you are the driver of the Fiesta. On Saturday's parade lap, you did not pass me at Hog Pen... you passed me on the back straight between South Pit out and Madison Avenue... lolly gagging or not... long b4 the green could have flown! So are you saying you had a radio and new byt the middle of the back straight that the green flag had flown?

hoop

[Knestis]

FWIW, on Saturday when I started almost last, Cameron was on the radio and I got his GREEN GREEN GREEN signal somewhere up toward the end of the hill, about where Bitch breaks off to the right, I think. I started passing like mad.

K

[grjones1]

If I passed you on the back straight it was because the guy in front of me in my line (on the left as I recall) passed you and I simply followed him as I am allowed to do. We stay in line; we do not have to remain right beside cars that are not in our line on the pace lap. (Cars constantly move up and down side by side on any pace lap.) In any case, I did not improve my position until after hogpen and after the green flag had dropped. If I had I'm sure the stewards would have hauled me in. They called me up for a metal to metal in 1 during qualifying that didn't happen, and the standup guy I was supposed to have hit told them he had lost it all on his own and indeed I had not hit him. So I'm sure they would not have overlooked a jumped start.

Besides that, if you did not have your foot down on the back straight for that start as far back from the pack as our group was you need to go back to school and learn how to start a race. Because you choose to remain a backmarker doesn't mean that the rest of us are not there to race. You would have deserved to have been passed if the rules would allow it.

I know you were car 74. What color is your car?

G. Robert Jones Silver Fiesta # 22

[grjones1]

One more minor point. In reviewing the lap charts I find I was gridded in front of you to begin with. What are you complaining about?

[iambhooper]

If I passed you on the back straight it was because the guy in front of me in my line (on the left as I recall) passed you and I simply followed him as I am allowed to do. We stay in line; we do not have to remain right beside cars that are not in our line on the pace lap. (Cars constantly move up and down side by side on any pace lap.) In any case, I did not improve my position until after hogpen and after the green flag had dropped. If I had I'm sure the stewards would have hauled me in. They called me up for a metal to metal in 1 during qualifying that didn't happen, and the standup guy I was supposed to have hit told them he had lost it all on his own and indeed I had not hit him. So I'm sure they would not have overlooked a jumped start.

Besides that, if you did not have your foot down on the back straight for that start as far back from the pack as our group was you need to go back to school and learn how to start a race. Because you choose to remain a backmarker doesn't mean that the rest of us are not there to race. You would have deserved to have been passed if the rules would allow it.

I know you were car 74. What color is your car?

G. Robert Jones Silver Fiesta # 22
[/b]

My car is White on Black with Red Stripes... and believe me, I was keeping up with the cars in front of me and not lagging. Two wins in 3 races hardly makes a backmarker!

[iambhooper]

One more minor point. In reviewing the lap charts I find I was gridded in front of you to begin with. What are you complaining about?
[/b]

If you were ahead of me on the grid, then what were you doing passing me on the formation lap? Check the rules buddy:

6.2.2. SCCA Standard Start (Rolling Start)

The following rolling start technique shall be known as the SCCA Standard Start and shall be utilized at all SCCA races, unless an alternate procedure has been approved by the Divisional Executive Steward and is set out in the Supplementary Regulations for the event.

J. A car may not improve its position in the field once it comes under the Starter’s orders, regardless of circumstances.

1. A car that fails to start with the pack or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes its grid position. It may rejoin the field only at the rear of the pack.

2. A car that improves its position is guilty of a false start and may be penalized. A false start shall occur when a driver under the Starter’s orders moves forward from his or her prescribed position before the start. In the case of a rolling start, this movement shall refer to improving the driver’s position in relation to the moving field by moving out of line or passing prior to the waving of the green flag.

3. If the Chief Steward determines that a false start has occurred, and the race has been started, that driver or drivers may be black-flagged and held in the pits or at the start line for a period of up to one minute. Other penalties may also be imposed. (See 7., Penalties)

Now, if the workers failed to call that in and the stewards failed to penalize you for that, then you got lucky this time.... Your trick worked, congratulations.

[grjones1]

This is ridiculous. I'm gridded ahead of you on the false grid and you are upset because I passed you on the pace lap because my line (the left line) passes your line because you guys are not keeping up with the pack) and I'm guilty of jumping the start. Bull. Everyone stays an the backend of the car in front of him in his line before the flag starts regardless of what the line beside him is doing. If your line is not up, that's your problem.

As a matter of fact I distinctly remember going by you again at Hog Pen. So you must have caught back up before I accelerated for the start when I saw the flagger indicate we had a start.

I don't care how many races you've won (I've won a few myself) you have no right accusing me of jumping and calling me a loser when it just didn't happen. And believe me I didn't have to jump any start to beat you on Saturday. I lost 2nd and 3rd gears by lap 5 and still beat your best time by half a second and finished a car ahead of you. Who are you trying to kid. I guess Janoska jumped you on the start too, he finished in front of you also.

My apologies to the site participants, but this kind of character assasination can't go unchallenged.

[grjones1]

This is ridiculous. I'm gridded ahead of you on the false grid and you are upset because I passed you on the pace lap because my line (the left line) passes your line because you guys are not keeping up with the pack) and I'm guilty of jumping the start. Bull. Everyone stays an the backend of the car in front of him in his line before the flag starts regardless of what the line beside him is doing. If your line is not up, that's your problem.

As a matter of fact I distinctly remember going by you again at Hog Pen. So you must have caught back up before I accelerated for the start when I saw the flagger indicate we had a start.

I don't care how many races you've won (I've won a few myself) you have no right accusing me of jumping and calling me a loser when it just didn't happen. And believe me I didn't have to jump any start to beat you on Saturday. I lost 2nd and 3rd gears by lap 5 and still beat your best time by half a second and finished a car ahead of you. Who are you trying to kid. I guess Janoska jumped you on the start too, he finished in front of you also.

My apologies to the site participants, but this kind of character assasination can't go unchallenged.

[iambhooper]

I'll stick by my position on where you passed me. And as the rules read, it doesn't matter if you were gridded ahead of me, you are not allowed to regain position on the pace lap. I have no recollection of you anywhere near me at hogpen, and if you passed me there under green flag conditions, I'm fine with that.

Jeff was fine. As for you... I don't have any argument with you other than you passing on the back straight on the pace lap.

My car can be fast. We had a handling issue on Saturday (almost had it back to normal on sunday) that made the car twitchy and kept us out of the 2:33's and 34's. That was dissapointinig.

Anyway, I've said my piece. Appologies here. Admin. please close this thread. The issue needs to be put to sleep.

hoop

[grjones1]

I respect your right to your opinion, flawed as it might be. But one last thought: If I am gridded ahead of you (and the lap chart indicates such) and I am put in a position to have to "regain my position" for the start (which according to you I'm not allowed to do) then you must have passed me on the pace lap at some point in which case you are as guilty as I in "jumping the start."

The thing is moot. We all know that during a pace lap the left and right lines shift up and down until we form up even before the flag. I think Saturday we just didn't get a chance to keep our lines together and there was no attempt by anyone to "jump." At least I know I had no desire to "trick" anybody: I just wanted to get to the race.

I look forward to racing you again when both our cars are healthy.
Admin , thanks for your indulgence.

G. Robert Jones