Heel and Toe Downshifting

[924Guy]

You think you have problems... I keep waiting for the boost to kick in when I'm on track!!! :026:

Since I'm part Welsh & Scotch I absoutely hate to spend money when I break things
[/b]

Amen, Brother!

[dj10]

You think you have problems... I keep waiting for the boost to kick in when I'm on track!!! :026:



Amen, Brother!
[/b]

Nice helmet! Who did the work?

[924Guy]

Local artists, Joe and Jenn Rutherford... also fellow gearheads and former ITB Capri racers...

[dj10]

Local artists, Joe and Jenn Rutherford... also fellow gearheads and former ITB Capri racers... [/b]

Please pass along my compliments to them.

[Marcus Miller]

I H&T anytime I am braking shifting. When not shifting, I LFB.

I can't double clutch. I'd rather watch a monkey F$%^ a football, thna attempt it. I'm simply not that nimble.

For H&T I do use the right knee pointed left, rather than roll. I think having an unruly car, rather than FWD versus correct wheel drive causes it. :P

Those of you who have never had a RWD car, especially an unruly one (Pro7/Spec7) have no idea what you are missing. I put a good friend who races an ITB VW in my car for an enduro. I told him specifically, do not shift unless straight, if you can't H&T perfectly.... 4 spins later, he quit shifting while turning. (West Coasters, Turn 2 @ Thunderhill, Turn 3 at Thunderhill, and 10 at Thundehill)

You learn *very* quickly how to LFB, and H&T.

Marcus

[Chris Wire]

I'll add my preference for both LFB and H&T.

I do the more traditional ball-of-the-foot on the BP edge and a roll to the right to accomodate the blip. It definitely takes practice, which makes driving a MT on the street very helpful. The tag on my old street Mustang 5.0 read "L8 BRAKR" for good reason. H&T was practiced on most occasions.

LFB when no downshift is required, such as entering the Carousel at Sebring. I find it to be smoother and requires less motion/effort to accomplish. I know it helps trail braking in FWD cars but RWD doesn't usually need that technique as much.

[rsx858]

I also attended skippy like some of you and learned the double clutch. I dont think its necesary to double clutch, but I always Heel Toe on every downshift whether driving my FWD on the street or RWD on the track. I dont know how anyone could not heel toe on the track without spinning the car or unnecessarily wearing the tranny.

[handfulz28]

Another skippy grad here. A little confused about all the different responses so check me out here to help clarify.
The non-sequential skippy cars preferred "double-clutching" and "rev-matching" during downshifts. Double-clutching is where you depress the clutch pedal twice for each lower gear selection, the first time to get the car out of gear, while in neutral the revs are "matched" for the selected lower gear, then the clutch is depressed again to finally select the lower gear. Since this is typically done during braking, the "heel and toe" language represents the simultaneous application of brake pedal and gas pedal.
I say "preferred" because during my school I regularly failed to use the clutch at all during downshifts. Lifting off the gas unloaded the trans so you could select neutral, then a decent blip getting the revs just a tad higher than the lower gear would let you slip the shifter in. Same with upshifts but of course letting the revs drop. Of course, when I got it wrong, everybody knew it
As for "production" cars with synchronized trans, matching engine revs to the lower gear while the clutch is depressed does nothing to save or help the synchros. All that does is disconnect the flywheel from the input shaft; the trans still has to spin the input shaft to the higher revs using the synchros. Matching the engine revs before you release the clutch just smooths the downshift. However, double-clutching will help reduce trans wear since the engine would spin the input shaft when you blip the throttle while in neutral, clutch pedal released. YMMV
I'm a left foot braking, double-clutching, heel and toe'er :P And sometimes I skip a gear on the downshift.
Feel free to critique...my technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIs0-ILjI1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFWAx-huuA
Oh yeah, as for foot placement, I've done it both ways depending on pedal layout. Bottom hinged pedals I use the heel on the brake, toe on the gas. Top hinged is typically more of the "roll" than a true HNT. Unless the pedal goes to the floor Then it's usually some contortion to get any part of the foot to blip the throttle.
Thanks,
Michael

[DavidM]

I'm a left foot braking, double-clutching, heel and toe'er :P And sometimes I skip a gear on the downshift.
[/b]

That was going to be my follow-up question. Do you go through every gear, I.e. 2 downshifts if going from 5-3, or use one downshift and go straight to the gear you want? I've been going through every gear as it's kind of helped me keep my rhythm, but think I'm going to try skipping straight to the gear this year a couple times and see how it goes.

I really struggled with H&T downshifting at the Panoz school and am still fighting with it in the 240. Not because I don't understand the concept, but because my size 13 feet are so big it's very hard for me to find a comfortable position for my foot and not have my knee hit the freaking steering wheel. I've been using a 13" wheel to give my knee more room, but that's been too small a wheel on tracks with tight corners. I'll get it figured out one day.

David

[erlrich]

David, I always run down through the gears on the 240; if I'm going from 5th gear down to a 3rd, or even 2nd gear corner (such as T1 at Summit) I feel like I've got plenty of time for 2-3 downshifts. These cars take long enough to haul down from 120 that you could almost eat a sandwich between the break point and turn-in

And I do also h&t on the downshifts; although I still need a lot of practice I think TTO is a very real issue in our rwd cars (ask me about South Bend at VIR), so I do whatever I can to eliminate it.

And oh, yeah, I use an even smaller (12.5") wheel in my car to get as much knee room as possible. I've never really had a problem with it, even in tight turns, but it does get a little busy in there when the back end starts stepping out.

[gran racing]

I go directly from 5th gear into to 3rd (it done late in the braking process).

[RSTPerformance]

I don't brake, thats why dave will always be n my mirror at the end of a race

Actually, Dave; "skipping" gears... do you find that that uses more braking (IE: wears the brakes faster)? I am not sure my car would ever stop if I depended soley on the brakes and not partialy the engine.

Raymond

[handfulz28]

but because my size 13 feet are so big it's very hard for me to find a comfortable position for my foot and not have my knee hit the freaking steering wheel.
David[/b]

No wonder! Easy solution: have your toes amputated! :P
Do you still have the tilt wheel available? I'm gonna guess you've got long legs so you should be back from the wheel a bit. Between tilting the wheel up a bit and using a spacer I would think you'd have a little room to move the knee? I know that's one of my pet peeves, having your hand(s) hit your knee(s) while working the wheel.
I skip gears infrequently, but Sebring's hairpin is one place that always seems to be a "short" braking zone coming down from 5th gear to 2nd. And maybe it's just me, but I'm not one that likes to zing the motor to redline on each downshift just so I can make a bunch of noise. I would hope a race car's brake system is stronger than the engine providing deceleration. IMHO that's just bad form. For me, having the car in gear during threshold braking is just a way to help minimize brake lockup.

[DavidM]

No wonder! Easy solution: have your toes amputated! :P
Do you still have the tilt wheel available? I'm gonna guess you've got long legs so you should be back from the wheel a bit. Between tilting the wheel up a bit and using a spacer I would think you'd have a little room to move the knee? I know that's one of my pet peeves, having your hand(s) hit your knee(s) while working the wheel.
I skip gears infrequently, but Sebring's hairpin is one place that always seems to be a "short" braking zone coming down from 5th gear to 2nd. And maybe it's just me, but I'm not one that likes to zing the motor to redline on each downshift just so I can make a bunch of noise. I would hope a race car's brake system is stronger than the engine providing deceleration. IMHO that's just bad form. For me, having the car in gear during threshold braking is just a way to help minimize brake lockup.
[/b]

Yup. I'm 6'5" with long legs. I have the tilt up a couple notches, but anymore and it'd be uncomfortable because of how far the seat is back. I was amazed the seat was back far enough for me since Bob is 5 or 6 inches shorter than me. He must've been straight legged and armed when driving. I'd like the steering wheel closer to me so I think I'm going to try a spacer next and see how that works. It may get the steering wheel out far enough that my knee can go behind it. I found a nice OMP steering wheel that has almost a 3" dish to it as well. It's pretty pricey at $219 though.

I think the thought with doing one downshift even when dropping multiple gears is that it makes it easier to stay at the maximum threshold on the brakes. If you're not having to roll your foot to blip the throttle then you can stay focused on the braking and just do the one downshift at the end of your braking. At least that's the theory Carroll Smith mentions in his books. I like the rhythm of going through all the gears, because then I know "where" I am in relation to car and engine speed. My concern with skipping gears would be getting the timing right. But I guess you never know till you try it.

David

[JLawton]

That was going to be my follow-up question. Do you go through every gear, I.e. 2 downshifts if going from 5-3, or use one downshift and go straight to the gear you want? I've been going through every gear as it's kind of helped me keep my rhythm, but think I'm going to try skipping straight to the gear this year a couple times and see how it goes.

I[/b]

When going 5th to 3rd I go 5,4,3 due to a fear of going 5th to 1st. Easy to do with all the other "little" distractions going on. But I go straight from 4th to 2nd. No fear of hitting the wrong gear there....

[gran racing]

Ray, using Carbotech' brakes (I say this because my experience was much different than when I used Porterfield) my brakes last quite a while. Do keep in mind that I primarily race at Lime Rock which is very light on brakes. This is basically how things were explained to me. What is the purpose of various actions, benefits / cons, and is it necessary with the car being raced? With my FWD Prelude, I have not found H&T to provide a benefit. Funny enough, I was a little hesitant to stop doing H&T partially because I had worked so hard when driving day-to-day pefecting it and now I'm not going to even apply this on the track? Since I became convinced it wasn't necessary, why continue doing it when it is just one addition input to the car? I also don't use my engine to slow the car down, I use my brakes. :P Even if this means you'd go though brake pads faster, it sure is cheaper than paying for a replacement engine and easier to replace. Shift from 5th > 4th > 3rd - why? Again, for my car it doesn't make sense. It just isn't necessary and involves additional steps, more input, and for my car/driving style I have not been convinced there are any benefits.

When going 5th to 3rd I go 5,4,3 due to a fear of going 5th to 1st. Easy to do with all the other "little" distractions going on.[/b]

Jeff, you're reasoning here is because you don't trust yourself to shift properly. Maybe slow your shift down by 1/8 of a second and you won't have this problem. Can't sacrifice the time? If you eliminate one shift you can.

Although I do NOT use this reasoning to make my decision, this does have some merrit: doing H&T adds to the chance of messing up (while I don't see a benefit). 20 laps of Ray filling my rear view mirrors while I'm pushing my car to its limits. It only would take one slight ooops doing H&T that would enable him to go by. Sure I've perfected H&T by doing it for years and it has become second nature. Have you ever been walking and stumble? Who put that bump in my walking path! LOL

Everyone will have their opinions, and of couse we're all right. I also can't say that sometime in the future with my car I won't be convinced that there are times when H&T should be used.

[benspeed]

In my sports cars I always heel and toe - comes totally natural to match the gears. Getting the right peddle setup is what makes it easy - the timing comes when the feet are comfortable. I blip the throttle hard to really make sure my car is super smooth under braking without getting the rear loose from letting out the clutch with the RPMs down. Listen to the front running folks at LRP going into Big Bend or at NHIS into turn 3 hairpin - seems like everybody does the H&T. I think it's a big key to making sure you don't unsettle the car under maximum braking - also helps if you want to trail brake without sliding the car. I spent mucho hours setting up te peddles in my new ITA Fiero.

When I started running the stock car I wasn't sure what to do. The throttle peddle is not a peddle but a plastic roller - no way to heal and toe it. Thought about switching up the peddles and there is no way to get down in there without dissasembling everything to get in. Took the car to Watkins Glen wondering how it would do - no need to heel and toe. This thing absolutely needs the motor to slow it down after hard braking - ran a 2:09 at the glen on the long course and felt like I was loafing it into the corners without doing the H&T. The equipment is so tough in these cars you can really manhandle the crap out of it and you need to. If I had unlimited cash I'd pay to have a new set of peddles put in by a NASCAR shop but in this type of ride it didn't matter as much as I thought it would.

[MMiskoe]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet is to slide out of gear while under braking, but w/o using the clutch. Under heavy braking this works quite well. Then blip, then clutch down and take your next gear. Solves having to run the pedal up & down twice.

I typically double clutch out of habit since my first track car (914) didn't downshift quickly with out it. I was a bit surprised to find that most people don't do this. It also helps if you have a clutch that binds up and won't fully dissengage when its hot.

If you want a real force fed method of learning how to double clutch, or shift w/o the clutch, take a drive in a large truck that has no syncros or cogs. Put your ear plugs in if you don't like the sound of gears grinding on each other.

[jamsilvia]

I both double clutch (mostly out of habit - but not sure where I got that habit from), and left foot brake.

If anyone cares to try and download the relatively large file (20M WMV format - sorry). Here's a driver camera for one lap at my SCCA school. This lap is one in the final race. Before the race, my crew was playing with the kill switch. In doing so, they reset the ECU, and with that, reset the speed limiter to kick in at 115 MPH. So when you see me just holding speed at around 110 or so, that's me keeping off of the speed limiter (which cuts power completely, and sometimes wouldn't restart!)

Can you guess what track??? :-)

Critique is welcome!!

My one lap

joe

(edit: found out how to make URL work!)

[gsbaker]

If you want a real force fed method of learning how to double clutch, or shift w/o the clutch, take a drive in a large truck that has no syncros or cogs.[/b]

Bingo. I once had a summer job as a youngster shuttling the big tractors around town. No choice but to double clutch those beasts.

I still H&T double clutch when downshifting, even on the street. Force of habit I suppose. For extra fun, try doing it without the clutch. No LFB for me though. I tried it once and concluded it would soon result in injured humans and substantial property damage.