IT Cars in Prod

[240zdave]

I've only been racing in the SCCA for six years, but here is my opinion, for what it's worth. For the SCCA to survive and grow, we need to attract new competitors. I don't have any facts and figures to back this up, but I would venture to say that most new competitiors that get into SCCA racing for the first time are doing so in IT. Therefore, anything that has the potential of making IT more expensive has the potential of having a detrimental effect on future membership and club viability. I can see letting IT cars run with the Prod cars as opening the door to that possibility.

Firstly, it will probably reduce the car counts in the regional IT races, thereby reducing the car counts for regional events, consequently raising the entry fees for regional events to keep them from losing money. Not a good scenario for attracting new members, or for keeping existing members operating on low budgets.

Secondly, as soon as IT cars are allowed to run with the Prod cars, the bitchin' and moanin' will start about how they (IT) are not competitive, and then one of two things will happen. Either the IT guys will stop entering the Prod races and go back to their regional ones, meaning we are back where we started, or the IT rules will start to be rewritten to make the cars more competitive with Prod, meaning more expense, and possibly 2 levels of IT in SCCA, regional and more expensive national.

On the other hand, if the national/regional class structure was dumped, making all classes eligible to make the Runoffs based on average car counts, IT could continue running as it does now, keeping the same rule set, with no temptation to modify the rules to keep up with some other class, and it would be up to the competitor whether he was willing to spend the dollars necessary to tow to all the tracks and enter the number of races it would take to get a shot a going to the Runoffs. To acquire/prep an IT car would not cost any more than it does now, just the added expense of competing at the "national" level. IT would still be available as the least costly starting point for new members wanting to get into low-budget racing.

OK, I'm done for now. Flame away at will.

[JohnRW]

Secondly, as soon as IT cars are allowed to run with the Prod cars, the bitchin' and moanin' will start about how they (IT) are not competitive, and then one of two things will happen. Either the IT guys will stop entering the Prod races and go back to their regional ones, meaning we are back where we started, or the IT rules will start to be rewritten to make the cars more competitive with Prod, meaning more expense, and possibly 2 levels of IT in SCCA, regional and more expensive national.[/b]

A gold star for Dave. While no one can predict the future, everything has consequences.

Andy gets the 'Bent, Tire-scuffed Medal of Honor' for taking all the shell-fire on this subject. I'll bring him a beer at LRP in late May.

I don't necessarily agree with the view that IT in Prod will suck some of the life out of IT in Regionals. Why ? Regional Championships...like MARRS, SARRC, NARRC, NYSRRC etc...will continue to hold a greater importance to many racers than running Nationals with a view toward the RunOffs. Not a different level of commitment...just a different level of focus.

A broad view from here: I still feel that there is something disingenuous about Prod inviting IT cars to fill their ranks to prop their numbers, while at the same time making damn sure that IT cars will never be truly competitive in Prod. How's that for a 'leading statement' ? Good thing I'm not a lawyer.....

[IPRESS]

Andy,
I know this isn't the whole IT world (only a small sample), but it appears that what you are selling either needs tweaking from the IT standpoint (which will kill it with the Prod side) or just dropping it all together. There have been some pretty good points brought up both ways, but the one thing that is probably the biggest factor, is HAVING A CHANCE in the race. The more I think about it the more I agree on that point. I doubt the Prod guys want IT cars to have a snowballs chance.

[lateapex911]

Andy,
. I doubt the Prod guys want IT cars to have a snowballs chance. [/b]

Had to laugh at that.....I love reading the Prod requests in Fastrack..."Add weight to the Mazda Miata in EP, thankyou, John Doe, Nissan Z car, CenDiv."...then the next request, "Add weight to the Nissan Z car in EP, thankyou, Bob Smith, Mazda Miata, CenDiv"...

Heck, the Prod guys don't want their own to have a chance! IT cars?? LOL.....

[Drew Aldred]

Heck, the Prod guys don't want their own to have a chance! IT cars?? LOL.....
[/b]

I was kinda trying to say this a few pages earlier. It's not that prod guys don't want you to have a chance, they just don't want it handed to you. (By "they" I include myself, not trying to throw Prod guys under the bus) It's a long and slow process to make adjustments to cars in Prod - that's by design. There is a great fear of creating an overdog by making large changes to a single car. The logic being what if an uber driver/engineer built this combo, would it be a runaway winner at the Runoffs.

I don't think many IT racers would be happy running forever with little chance of winning and no adjustments available. IF the IT cars are classed for Prod, I would expect a change in the rules to allow for some competition adjustments. Understand it doesn't happen quickly, or it might happen without anyone seemingly requesting a change........... Sounds like fun right ???

Again, I would love to have more cars on track racing in Prod but I think IT has a pretty good thing going. But it's not like IT is going away, if the Prod "experiment" doesn't work out then you can still run in IT. I don't see alot of guys switching over full time from IT to Prod, but that's my opinion.

[cherokee]

In resopnse to Jake's questions on the other page:

Could you expand on the "ease into prod" part?

Sure, if you make the IT car in prod have slicks and all the safety stuff required in prod but only “recommended” in prod the car is almost there. He is running in prod, if he wanted to go full prep he can pull lights and lenses and such, slap an FP sticker on his car and go, he has tires, wheels, safety prep already done. As he gets more experience he can start fiddling with the motor and suspension upgrades.
Easing into prod from an IT car is just not possible, there is so much to buy and so much to learn. If he decides I am going to take my ITB car and go FP, there is nothing easy about it, and it is a hard road to go back if you don’t like the other side of the fence.

That last part is a big maybe...whats the reasoning or the rational behind it? Just curious as to the line of thinking.

My thoughts are, if they see the newer IT cars out there, running in IT trim and seeing how fast they are, they might be a little quicker to class them, perhaps a little more receptive to the request to class the 2002 Wombat if that car had been with the prod guys. It is a long shot but it might help. They might do something like IT did with the New Beetle, not the best example but it might help a tiny bit.

I'm interested in hearing the how and why behind the boldened statement (might get more people in to SCCA). What mechanism do you see occuring to make that a reality?

Getting new people into the SCCA, or Secret Car Club of America, is a hard one. Last year I worked the SCCA booth at a local car show and you would be amazed how few “enthusiasts” even knew about autocross, how to get started….anything. I will not even talk about club racing.

For what it is, the TV coverage is the best exposure to the general public that the SCCA gets and IF IT gets TV coverage I think it would go a long way. We have the most cost effective class out there. IF a lowly IT car got TV time or heaven forbid a feature spot the door could open big time. I think part of the success of SM is the TV exposure from the pro series, there are other reasons out there and better reasons, but Miatas on TV is not hurting.

[zenbutcher]

QUOTE(IPRESS @ Mar 29 2007, 08:25 AM)
Andy,
. I doubt the Prod guys want IT cars to have a snowballs chance.


Had to laugh at that.....I love reading the Prod requests in Fastrack..."Add weight to the Mazda Miata in EP, thankyou, John Doe, Nissan Z car, CenDiv."...then the next request, "Add weight to the Nissan Z car in EP, thankyou, Bob Smith, Mazda Miata, CenDiv"...

Heck, the Prod guys don't want their own to have a chance! IT cars?? LOL.....[/b]

Perfectly stated! LOL.....sad, but really, really true.

Peter B.

[lateapex911]

For what it is, the TV coverage is the best exposure to the general public that the SCCA gets and IF IT gets TV coverage I think it would go a long way. We have the most cost effective class out there. IF a lowly IT car got TV time or heaven forbid a feature spot the door could open big time. I think part of the success of SM is the TV exposure from the pro series, there are other reasons out there and better reasons, but Miatas on TV is not hurting.
[/b]

I'm right with you in regards to the Runoffs being a geat marketing chance for the club...and I've long beaten the drum that we present ourselves to the uninitiated...the very people we want to get involved, and we don't showcase our entry level category...IT. (Ignoring for a second the SM entry level category...)

So there we are on TV, saying, "Come join us, it's easy!", and we don't show a great way to do it. Sad.

But.....I don't see how this plan...allowing IT cars into Prod, will result in IT getting TV exposure. Even IF some guy found the right division to score enough points in his ITA car, I don't think he'd stand a snowballs chance at the Runoffs as he's essentially classed one up from where the car could be competitive. Even if the fields in Prod are thin at the Runofffs, the front few rows are still pretty quick.

Maybe the guy would get the "human interest" angle, but it's not going to attract newbies who have dreams of running near the front.

I could be wrong on all this, as I said earlier....someone help me see the light!

[JIgou]

Through all of these pages, to me there's a very important point needs to be remembered: it's not a requirement that you run your IT car in its "allowed" Prod class. The IT class remains where it is, with the same cars and same drivers you've come to love (or hate :P ).

If the proposal were passed, I believe IT can (and would) remain exactly as it is today. A handful of folks may take advantage of the allowance periodically, but not enough to significantly impact the Prod class numbers.

I guess I just don't understand the "bad" side to the proposal? (My eyes did start to glaze over at about page 6, so maybe I missed it...)

Jarrod

[gran racing]

For the SCCA to survive and grow, we need to attract new competitors.[/b]

I certainly agree with this statement, but the big thing we need to do is improve the member retention numbers. For the past several years, the amount of new members SCCA gets is just about the same as the number of members the club loses. How many? ~ 10,000 per year. Now granted some of those are members who let their membership lapse and obtain a new member number when they re-sign. It sure is cheaper and easier to focus on member retention.

Seeing IT cars racing at the Runoffs by itself would provide the club exposure and probably help attract new members looking to race on a lower budget. My feeling has been that people with a lot of money who want to race, will find their way into the sport. It's the middle/upper middle class people that find that road tougher. Would seeing IT cars mixed in with other much faster cars (the whole prod class idea) make people want to look into IT as a budget minded way to start racing? I'm not so sure.

[cherokee]

But.....I don't see how this plan...allowing IT cars into Prod, will result in IT getting TV exposure. Even IF some guy found the right division to score enough points in his ITA car, I don't think he'd stand a snowballs chance at the Runoffs as he's essentially classed one up from where the car could be competitive. Even if the fields in Prod are thin at the Runofffs, the front few rows are still pretty quick.

[/b]

If they where classed in the order that (I think) Bill suggested ITR>EP, ITS>FP, ITA>GP, ITB and ITC > HP, I think that the times are close enough. I also think when runoff times came when the real motors go into prod cars the IT cars would be fighting from about 10th down but still not too far off the pace, during the season when many prod cars have less high strung motors in them it would be a battle at the front.

I doubt it will ever happen, IT will get to stay regional, small bore prod class will combine, and Topeka will come up with yet another new class that they will want to use IT cars to bolster the numbers in.

There is that glass half empty thing going on again.

[240zdave]

If they where classed in the order that (I think) Bill suggested ITR>EP, ITS>FP, ITA>GP, ITB and ITC > HP, I think that the times are close enough. [/b]

Is the above grouping based on IT lap times, or anticipated IT lap times if allowed to run slicks? Does anyone have experience with taking their IT car, putting slicks on it, and running Prod? How many seconds a lap would one expect to gain by this one change? My apologies if this was already discussed on a previous page.

[Andy Bettencourt]

A lot of comments by people who haven't read the entire thread but:

IT cars would be placed in some Prod class via a structure - with NO changes to IT Prep. That means no slicks, no cells, etc.

Having a chance in the race is not the idea here. This is NOT a dual-classification proposal. There will NEVER be comp adjustments to better fit the IT cars into Prod. That already exsists - its called Limited Prep Production.

This idea is much simpler than people are trying to make it. Prod is in the middle of a big re-write and cleanup.

[Knestis]

And the fact that people keep re-purposing the discussion to other IT-to-Prod models is evidence that...

Oh, never mind.

K

[shwah]

Since we are typing on the internet this might come across as an abrasive comment. It's not meant that way...

Maybe the other issues keep being raised because many members would like to see our efforts put towards resolving root problems they see with the path (or lack thereof) from IT to Production, rather than giving IT drivers the honor of getting creamed at national races by Production cars for no discernable reason other than it might be neat to try.

[IPRESS]

I certainly agree with this statement, but the big thing we need to do is improve the member retention numbers. For the past several years, the amount of new members SCCA gets is just about the same as the number of members the club loses. How many? ~ 10,000 per year. Now granted some of those are members who let their membership lapse and obtain a new member number when they re-sign. It sure is cheaper and easier to focus on member retention.

Seeing IT cars racing at the Runoffs by itself would provide the club exposure and probably help attract new members looking to race on a lower budget. My feeling has been that people with a lot of money who want to race, will find their way into the sport. It's the middle/upper middle class people that find that road tougher. Would seeing IT cars mixed in with other much faster cars (the whole prod class idea) make people want to look into IT as a budget minded way to start racing? I'm not so sure.
[/b]

I don't think someone just starting to look at racing has a clue about the different classes or costs. What I mean is, I doubt a guy looking at an EP miata would think or know it was more expensive then a SM. Yhey might think it was cheaper at first sight. As far as TV, I think it is highly overated as far as being an SCCA calling card. (It probably fits in the whole scheme of Secret Car Club) The playback has been at some bad times in the past and usually up against other sports that kill it as far as viewership. In reality it is US watching US. Now if you could get it in primetime at night you could snag some channel surfers and general sports nuts that might be looking for something other then the 6th Holdem Tournament of the night.
I do see the club moving in the right direction on member retention... how you ask? It is taking time but it seems that you are starting to get some member perks through associated companies that can benefit the member. Nothing huge, but more and more little things that might keep a guy reupping. Somebody working on this tact full time would pay big dividends to the club. It may alredy be in place as I am not exactly a Topeka insider. SM brought in a lot of new members as it was promoted through print media as a starter class that was cheap and simple to get in and get started. Having Mazda behind that made it much easier to get the thing promoted and covered by motorsports writers. IT is that same animal with different makes, yet it is not promoted by SCCA or really anybody else. No articles (well maybe Grassroots has) like one a few years ago in AUTOMOBILE about SM called "Cheap Skates", that sell a cost effective (and simple) way to get into road racing. Nearly every car magazine was putting something about SM, and the results was huge growth to club racing SM grids. TV really was not much of a factor, although the Laguna Race a few years back was pretty neat, it was still US watching US.
If you could get that type of promotion via print articles about IT and how cheap it is and easy it is, you wouldn't have to worry about joining Prod classes to get to Topeka. IT would be so big that numbers alone would get it on the dance card. Heck they might make Prod join IT!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Since we are typing on the internet this might come across as an abrasive comment. It's not meant that way...

Maybe the other issues keep being raised because many members would like to see our efforts put towards resolving root problems they see with the path (or lack thereof) from IT to Production, rather than giving IT drivers the honor of getting creamed at national races by Production cars for no discernable reason other than it might be neat to try. [/b]

Again, the CRB is working hard on Prod. There is a re-write of the rules going on right now and I have been contacted to make sure the IT persective is represented (ie: rules that prevent easy crossover).

And I still haven't seen any letters from anyone asking for IT to go National. Sometimes I think there is resistance just for resistance sake. This may not even be needed if the CRB is doing the job I think they are doing right now...

[Fi3555]

I think many of you have missed the point in allowing IT cars to participate in Production classes. It is an opportunity to move up in the level of competition and also the level preparation of your car. By competition I am talking about the level of driver. Generally a seasoned national driver is more skilled than a regional one. This participation allows a newer driver to hone his driving skills by more "seat time" and learning from more experienced drivers.
By level of preparation I am including the desire to re-engineer or improve the car. Production rules offer many more ways to modify the car. It is just human nature to want to build "a better mousetrap"
Sure, there are exceptions to this theory. One can compare driver ability between the runoffs and the ARRC.(equal in tallent) Or you can compare the high-tech new IT car attributes to some re-engineered 40 year old prod cars. But it's the same end result: Competing within the confines of the regs. and being faster than the other guy. If an IT owner wants to be more competitive in a Prod class he just has to modify his car to the less restrictive Prod rules. Real simple. If he wants to run IT events just stay IT. Same outcome; a place to compete.


Tim Pitts
S.E. Div.
#11 GP Golf

[Bill Miller]

I think many of you have missed the point in allowing IT cars to participate in Production classes. It is an opportunity to move up in the level of competition and also the level preparation of your car. By competition I am talking about the level of driver. Generally a seasoned national driver is more skilled than a regional one. This participation allows a newer driver to hone his driving skills by more "seat time" and learning from more experienced drivers.
By level of preparation I am including the desire to re-engineer or improve the car. Production rules offer many more ways to modify the car. It is just human nature to want to build "a better mousetrap"
Sure, there are exceptions to this theory. One can compare driver ability between the runoffs and the ARRC.(equal in tallent) Or you can compare the high-tech new IT car attributes to some re-engineered 40 year old prod cars. But it's the same end result: Competing within the confines of the regs. and being faster than the other guy. If an IT owner wants to be more competitive in a Prod class he just has to modify his car to the less restrictive Prod rules. Real simple. If he wants to run IT events just stay IT. Same outcome; a place to compete.


Tim Pitts
S.E. Div.
#11 GP Golf
[/b]

Tim,

Please provide some evidence to support this.

[shwah]

Again, the CRB is working hard on Prod. There is a re-write of the rules going on right now and I have been contacted to make sure the IT persective is represented [/b]

This is more important than your proposal that started this thread to me. This is a prerequisite to your proposal making sense to me.

IT being national or not isn't a big driver for me.