IT Cars in Prod

[RacerBill]

If an IT owner wants to be more competitive in a Prod class he just has to modify his car to the less restrictive Prod rules. Real simple.
[/b]

This assumes that the IT car is classed in a Production class, as either full prep or limited prep - ie Dodge Shelby Charger = E PROD full prep or F PROD limited prep. Heck, it's even classed as GT3!

I'm still on the fence deciding which way I would like to see IT go - there are several good proposals on the table but there are many pros and cons to each one. I don't think that the club can support many more classes, especially at the Runoffs. One thing I am definitely against is the end of the ARRC.

[Fi3555]

Bill,

It's real simple. Take a Reg/Nat class such as SM. Take the average lap times of Nat vs. Reg. drivers in a single event. Of course there's a difference. In order to keep a Nat. license one must race more events each season. I'm sure there are many exceptions to this as far as individuals, but we're talking as a whole.
But all this doesn't mean a rat's a$$. Mixing dissmilar cars ina class and adjusting each one to make it competitive isn't a good idea. If I want to IT race I bring my ITB car. If I want to Prod. race I use my GP.
Different rules , different technique and different strategy. Not better or worse, just different.


Tim Pitts
#97 ITB
#11 GP

[Andy Bettencourt]

Bill,

It's real simple. Take a Reg/Nat class such as SM. Take the average lap times of Nat vs. Reg. drivers in a single event. Of course there's a difference. In order to keep a Nat. license one must race more events each season. I'm sure there are many exceptions to this as far as individuals, but we're talking as a whole.
But all this doesn't mean a rat's a$$. Mixing dissmilar cars ina class and adjusting each one to make it competitive isn't a good idea. If I want to IT race I bring my ITB car. If I want to Prod. race I use my GP.
Different rules , different technique and different strategy. Not better or worse, just different.


Tim Pitts
#97 ITB
#11 GP [/b]

Tim,

I think Bill's forthcoming point is simple. IT isn't a Reg/National. So all the best drivers at all the best prep levels are already there. There is no Junior Varsity. If you like the ruleset and the cars, you bring your A game.

And I would be willing to bet that your average Regional IT driver does WAY more racing each year than your average National driver. Here an example: ITA in the NARRC series last season had 98 drivers run at least one race. 27 of those drivers ran 4 or more races. 10 of those drivers ran 8 or more races. If Prod had that kind of participation, there wouldn't be any complaining about the 'top 24'.

[OTLimit]

Okay, now this is strictly from what I have seen since we have run cars in ITB and GP:

Slicks are NOT 4 seconds a lap faster at a track like Gateway (or any other track that we regularly race at). Use of DOT vs slicks doesn't make that much difference if you are mid-pack to begin with.

Overall, national drivers are NOT "better" then regional drivers. Got to tell you, there are some real squirrels out there who only race 4 races a year, or less, and will get a waiver to hold their national license.

Development is development. It doesn't cost me any more when Chris takes the G car to the dyno then the B car. Only costs me more if Chris decides he must have a new cam. Building a new motor is just expensive; since Chris does his own assembly, only the machine work is different, and it's not a deal breaker. Maintenance is the same (actually the IT car is worse because it usually does more races).

The BOB, CRB and Prod Adhoc members responsible for the first LP classifications can say whatever they want. LP cars (at least ours) were not intended to be competitive. The ONLY reason Chris was 3rd last year at the Runoffs was because of the rain AND he's a good driver, especially in the rain. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. When we first started with the GP car (not the crossover IT car), there was no way the car was competitve. It has come a long way, but on a dry track at Topeka, if Chris can stay within 2 seconds/lap of the leaders, I will be surprised. In 20 laps, 2 seconds is a LONG time.

Allowing IT cars into Prod is not going to help the problem in the longterm if they go out and get lapped twice in every race. Very demoralizing. Logical classification of more IT cars into Prod is a better way to handle it. Go out and use your car as a "crossover" car the way we did for awhile. It was a lot of fun, but it was also a lot of work.

The fact is that if you want to go to Prod, you will. Just go into it with your eyes open.

BTW, I am solely responsible for the opinions expressed in this post and others within my household may not agree with me.

[charrbq]

Leslie,
Thank you for wading into this nosh-pit of egos as the voice of experience.

[924Guy]

For me, the aforementioned re-working of Prod rules (as mentioned by Andy makes me want this thing to go on ice till that sorts itself out.

Though the realistic (aka pessimistic) side of me says since this is Prod we're talking about, that could be years - and no reason to make IT'ers wait years...

[Andy Bettencourt]

The fact is that if you want to go to Prod, you will. Just go into it with your eyes open.

[/b]

Well I guess the question I need answered is HOW do you go into it with your eyes open? A front running IT car won't get lapped twice. Take a look at your next set of National results in your area (a collective you, not Leslie) and place the IT track record down in the results. It will give you a idea of how 'deap' these National fields are - or AREN'T as the case is. I bet I could podium at the LRP National this year.

Regardless...not many people share my vision. Not a problem! I believe the CRB will do all they can to make it easier to transition to Prod from IT...I just want to make it easy to TRY the scene before you BUY the scene...

[gran racing]

Instead of looking at the IT track record, one should look at the front running IT cars assuming they are well prepped.

Just because it would do well at LRP doesn't mean it would at other types of tracks (meaning tracks that reward power more such as RA).

[cherokee]

Well I guess the question I need answered is HOW do you go into it with your eyes open?
[/b]

I can tell you how I am doing it, I ask questions of those who have been there before me. I was going to do what Chris did with his car, have it pull double duty. I have changed my mind after asking some questions and am going to build a prod car from scratch however with the overall health of the prod class I might just wait and see how things shake out.

I have found that the prod guys that I have talked to where happy to help you get started, and realistic about what you are going to run into. They where quick to point out all issues...all the way around.
Talk to them....it is that easy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Instead of looking at the IT track record, one should look at the front running IT cars assuming they are well prepped.

Just because it would do well at LRP doesn't mean it would at other types of tracks (meaning tracks that reward power more such as RA). [/b]

Dave,

It's just to give you an idea of the lap times. You could assume that the front running IT cars at that track ARE near the track record...NEAR is the key word.

And track records aren't all heald by the same type of car...so again, it's just for an idea of lap potential. Like I stated in one of my examples, one of the better attended Nationals this year - in EACH of teh Prod classes the top 3 finishers had a 5 second per lap spread. FIVE seconds. There is no doubt in my mind a top prep IT car could wiggle it's way in there.

[924Guy]

There is no doubt in my mind a top prep IT car could wiggle it's way in there.
[/b]

Once, at least...

[Charlie Broring]

Well I guess the question I need answered is HOW do you go into it with your eyes open? A front running IT car won't get lapped twice. Take a look at your next set of National results in your area (a collective you, not Leslie) and place the IT track record down in the results. It will give you a idea of how 'deap' these National fields are - or AREN'T as the case is. I bet I could podium at the LRP National this year.

Regardless...not many people share my vision. Not a problem! I believe the CRB will do all they can to make it easier to transition to Prod from IT...I just want to make it easy to TRY the scene before you BUY the scene...
[/b]

Andy, I tried to take a front running ITB car into Production and met with nothing but frustration. I did so with the encouragement of a member of the CRB at the time. In retrospect, my eyes were not open wide enough. The Prod Ad Hoc has shown little interest in attracting IT cars in the past. Their Prod classifications of larger IT cars such as my Volvo show no effort to allow them to be competitive. Based on past performance I hold little hope for any rule rewrite. It would take some strong direction from the CRB to get the Advisory Board to change it's ways.

Running IT cars in Prod is a brilliant idea. A workable transition from IT to Prod for ALL cars would certainly help with Prod's recurring participation number crunch. But, in the past Prod has been too nearsighted for this kind of thing. Now if you suggested a new engine configuration for a H/P Bug Eye Sprite they could deal with that...

Charlie Broring

[lateapex911]

............... It would take some strong direction from the CRB to get the Advisory Board to change it's ways.

Running IT cars in Prod is a brilliant idea. A workable transition from IT to Prod for ALL cars would certainly help with Prod's recurring participation number crunch. But, in the past Prod has been too nearsighted for this kind of thing. Now if you suggested a new engine configuration for a H/P Bug Eye Sprite they could deal with that...

Charlie Broring [/b]

Well, what Andy is saying is that the CRB IS going to give strong direction....and I've heard the same thing. It might be too little too late, but, if the PAC can nail down an objective method, thats a major first step.

It IS a tough situation though....

[shwah]

Regardless...not many people share my vision. Not a problem! I believe the CRB will do all they can to make it easier to transition to Prod from IT...I just want to make it easy to TRY the scene before you BUY the scene...
[/b]

As I stated at the beginning (if you are referring to trying the National scene), this already exists in DP.

I believe that we will have an easier transition in the future from IT to Prod. I believe that IT has provided a clear example of the type of methodology that can help resolve much of Prods classification issues and reputation issues. This will result in a stronger Production class, and a stronger club if it can be accomplished before the small production classes vaporize.

[Bill Miller]

Okay, now this is strictly from what I have seen since we have run cars in ITB and GP:

Slicks are NOT 4 seconds a lap faster at a track like Gateway (or any other track that we regularly race at). Use of DOT vs slicks doesn't make that much difference if you are mid-pack to begin with.

Overall, national drivers are NOT "better" then regional drivers. Got to tell you, there are some real squirrels out there who only race 4 races a year, or less, and will get a waiver to hold their national license.

Development is development. It doesn't cost me any more when Chris takes the G car to the dyno then the B car. Only costs me more if Chris decides he must have a new cam. Building a new motor is just expensive; since Chris does his own assembly, only the machine work is different, and it's not a deal breaker. Maintenance is the same (actually the IT car is worse because it usually does more races).

The BOB, CRB and Prod Adhoc members responsible for the first LP classifications can say whatever they want. LP cars (at least ours) were not intended to be competitive. The ONLY reason Chris was 3rd last year at the Runoffs was because of the rain AND he's a good driver, especially in the rain. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. When we first started with the GP car (not the crossover IT car), there was no way the car was competitve. It has come a long way, but on a dry track at Topeka, if Chris can stay within 2 seconds/lap of the leaders, I will be surprised. In 20 laps, 2 seconds is a LONG time.

Allowing IT cars into Prod is not going to help the problem in the longterm if they go out and get lapped twice in every race. Very demoralizing. Logical classification of more IT cars into Prod is a better way to handle it. Go out and use your car as a "crossover" car the way we did for awhile. It was a lot of fun, but it was also a lot of work.

The fact is that if you want to go to Prod, you will. Just go into it with your eyes open.

BTW, I am solely responsible for the opinions expressed in this post and others within my household may not agree with me.
[/b]

Thank you Lesley!

Andy,

Take a look at Summit Point. ~5.5 seconds between the FP lap record and the ITA lap record. Over the course of a 22 or 23 lap race, that ITA car would get lapped at least once. Put that ITA car in GP, and you've got a much better race.

[lateapex911]

Well, all this talk about IT going national, or not national, and running in Prod, etc got me thinking...

here's an interesting look back...

http://web.archive.org/web/20021002215258/...ring.com/chat2/

[Bill Miller]

Well, all this talk about IT going national, or not national, and running in Prod, etc got me thinking...

here's an interesting look back...

http://web.archive.org/web/20021002215258/...ring.com/chat2/
[/b]

Thanks Jake, I didn't realize that stuff was still around. There were some pretty interesting reads.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thank you Lesley!

Andy,

Take a look at Summit Point. ~5.5 seconds between the FP lap record and the ITA lap record. Over the course of a 22 or 23 lap race, that ITA car would get lapped at least once. Put that ITA car in GP, and you've got a much better race. [/b]

Those records are weird. 2/10ths of a second difference between EP and FP?

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/laprecs.php

And nobody said you wouldn't have a better chance...just maybe too much of a chance for this to fly.

[Grumpa]

I'm not going to weigh in on the IT racers propping up the Prod numbers debate - I think that has been flogged pretty thoroughly. I really don't see the point of allowing IT to run in Prod Nationals, it seems to me to be like comparing apples and oranges. If I really want to try the Prod waters, I would find a Prod owner/team and approach them with the idea of renting the operation for a National weekend. My pretzel logic is a weekend spent in a Prod car would be a much better way to test the water than flogging my Rabbit around the backend of the field and not really getting to race anyone except the other ITC racers - if there are any others. If I liked the experience and didn't wad the car up, then I would inquire about running another race or two in the car to get a better understanding of the car and the racers I was up against.

My other observation is this; why the sacred cows in the National program? Throw caution to the wind and open the Runoffs up to the 23 or 24 classes that have the best participation regardless of their National/Regional status. Keep the programs separate, but if one or more of the IT classes have the numbers to make it to the Runoffs, then let them participate. For crying out loud, it's not our fault that the IT fields are getting bigger than the ones in Prod. It's pretty hard for 20-30 year olds - the future of the club - to get excited about 40 to 50 year old racecars, but they certainly know Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc, ad infinitum.

[pavis]

Andy,
That sounds good especially in our DIV as there are a lot of one race weekends for IT.
[/b]

Mac-

I agree that it would give the SoWest Div IT community more racing time. However, it might also give the division an excuse to continue to ignore our pathetic regional racing program. (See Chirs' comments) Be careful what we wish for (i.e. SM going national)