IT Cars in Prod

[IPRESS]

IT seems to have a stable set of rules at this point. One thing to consider is what would going national do to this stability?
Andy, how many rules "massages" have been made since National first adopted the SM rules nationally? It seems quite a few.
There seems to be a great many little things that start changing the class when it moves from regional to national. Some of them may be positive.... others not so much.
Peter's suggestion of renting a national ride sort of says a lot. If the RUNOFFS is your be all end all race there are 24+ classes to run in to get there. Some folks after being there may decide that it wasn't worth the time, $$, and other stuff that goes with it.
It is sort of funny that tnord and myself see IT as just fine like it is. We both are not in areas that have many DBL REG. weekends. We have shorter races then national classes and we have less practice time. Those being negatives I still see IT as it is as being the right niche for a big group of budget racers. You guys in the SE & NE and Left Coast have it double good as there are many DBL REG weekends to enjoy in those areas. (Heck if I lived in one of those areas I would really be against IT going National! As it is if most folks want it I could grin and bear it.)

This thread is pretty good as it shows lots of differnt views and opinions. I'm already looking at it from a different take.

Mac

[ddewhurst]

***This thread is pretty good as it shows lots of differnt views and opinions. I'm already looking at it from a different take.***

The fun part is that many of us have cars that are classed in National at this time & doing a National race is no big deal. Presuming cell is in car, NASCAR bars /side glass gone, remove front parking/side bulbs/lenses, change decals & go racing.

My bet is that when all this thread is history, Andy has written his letter , above ^ is the ONLY way IT cars will race within a National Production race group.

[EarlinFla]

I agree with Dave Gran that this proposal is an attempt to prop up National attendance.

Earl Clemenson, ITC, CFR Region

[dj10]

I agree with Dave Gran that this proposal is an attempt to prop up National attendance.

Earl Clemenson, ITC, CFR Region [/b]

Even if this is true, there is nothing wrong with changing your business plan. I would have to scratch my head if the SCCA didn't make changes. It's a matter of survival, lead, follow or get out of the way. If I were the SCCA, I would not distingust between national and regional, it would be only SCCA National Racing. I mean every class. For the runoffs, I get, as an example the 15 most popular and exciting racing classes (invite them by points) and let them go for championships. This way, just because I have a National car (except ITE and catch all groups) doesn't mean I have to go the the runoffs, if ITR was selected. Hell, everyone would be a national car. You would be the biggest fields and the best racing. IMO. No matter what, the cream will always rise to the top. Don't be to fast to criticize this plan, I just thought of it as I am typing. If you think about IT racing, most of the top IT drivers could even race PRO, and some do, if they had a chance. So don't tell me there is not enough talent in IT racing to make the SCCA Nationals more exciting.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree with Dave Gran that this proposal is an attempt to prop up National attendance.

Earl Clemenson, ITC, CFR Region [/b]

Well, you would be wrong. As the originator of the proposal, it may be a concequence but it is not the primary or even secondary reason. I would think the only benefit to that aspect would be less resitance fom the Prod community.

[cherokee]

Costs seem to be the #1 reason brought up as to why IT should not go national, and I think that is grabbing for straws. That was the reason for the huge note reguarding costs that I posted a page or so back.

Our rules are stable because of the way IT is setup. I don't see IT going to plastic fenders (except for Fiero's) and crazy cams, carbs, and mondo FI systems. The core set of rules make that not possible. If the day comes that I can't get a stock cam, or whatever then the days of running IT in that car are over. The core of IT is an OEM susp, drive line and body pannels.

If we keep high $$ fuel injection, fenders made of alternate material, trick trannies and such out of IT I think we will have a stable rule set.

But I have to agree, I also fail to see how running your existing IT car in prod is going to give you a taste of anything. You are running an IT car, want a taste of prod rent one and see what it is like to run on slicks with trick trannies and all the goodies. I see it as not giving IT a taste of prod racing I see it as giving prod a taste of IT's car counts. Prod gets all the good and we get to motor around the same track, in the same car, how does that tell me about the experence of driving a car with a prod setup, the cars are different as can be.

To make my opinion clear, I do support Andy's position....only if IT cars are classed competitively. Or IT as a national class.

[RSTPerformance]

Well, you would be wrong. As the originator of the proposal, it may be a concequence but it is not the primary or even secondary reason. I would think the only benefit to that aspect would be less resitance fom the Prod community.
[/b]

I agree with Andy that it is not the intent but it sure is a great benefit/result for other people outside the IT community (IE: SCCA as a whole).

Raymond

[Knestis]

There IS something to the idea of giving other stakeholders something that they see as valuable, to further one's own agenda. If Andy's idea gets support (or at least, avoids push-back) from existing Prod folks BECAUSE they perceive that it helps save their class, then that potentially eliminates challenges to the policy.

That said, cherokee raises a good, fundamental question: Precisely what is it that an IT guy/gal would be "tasting," by running as a Production entry? Bigger trophies? More track time? I'm ignoring that someone could double up on a Reg/Nat weekend because there are opportunities to do that in many Regional-only schedules.

Andy?

I'm back to thinking that there's an alternative agenda embedded here. The old saw comes to mind, about how once the camel gets its nose under the tent flap, you are destined to have the whole animal in there with you. Once IT cars are listed UN-competitively in Prod, it will be politically impossible to get rid of them and internal pressure will eventually get them adjusted more favorably...?

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

There IS something to the idea of giving other stakeholders something that they see as valuable, to further one's own agenda. If Andy's idea gets support (or at least, avoids push-back) from existing Prod folks BECAUSE they perceive that it helps save their class, then that potentially eliminates challenges to the policy.

That said, cherokee raises a good, fundamental question: Precisely what is it that an IT guy/gal would be "tasting," by running as a Production entry? Bigger trophies? More track time? I'm ignoring that someone could double up on a Reg/Nat weekend because there are opportunities to do that in many Regional-only schedules.

Andy?

I'm back to thinking that there's an alternative agenda embedded here. The old saw comes to mind, about how once the camel gets its nose under the tent flap, you are destined to have the whole animal in there with you. Once IT cars are listed UN-competitively in Prod, it will be politically impossible to get rid of them and internal pressure will eventually get them adjusted more favorably...?

K [/b]

Well first off, I don't know how there can be an imbedded agenda. It's my idea from inception. Now I culd never gurantee anyone that this idea won't hurt IT ever going National but I doubt it. I am also confident the current BoD isn't up on that specific idea. Going National that is.

What I perceive that person would be 'tasting', is the speed of a National car, prep level of a National car, the people in the National program, the duration and scheduling of a National race, etc. Basically (again) opening up a smooth and logical path between categories.

[cherokee]

What I perceive that person would be 'tasting', is the speed of a National car, prep level of a National car, the people in the National program, the duration and scheduling of a National race, etc. Basically (again) opening up a smooth and logical path between categories.
[/b]

The taste of speed? I can get the same taste of speed getting run over by an ITE Viper or 911 turbo better then getting run over by an Prod Honda.

The tast of the prep level? I am doing nothing to my car, I can get a better idea of prod car prep by hanging out with one and being an crew guy for a race or two. They seem pretty receptive to having another set of hands.

The taste of the people (that sounds wrong ) See above, talking to them letting them know you are intrested opened doors for me. I doubt you would see any driver in any class say no I think you should stay where you are.

I do agree with the smooth and logical path between catagories, but I think if the objective of getting people a taste of anything what you are proposing will not do it.

Put the IT cars in on slicks and if applicable wider wheels, make them do all the mods that are legal in both IT and prod. Make it to where any adjustment to anything on the car is not possible unless there is a rule chance in IT, these are IT cars running in prod, they follow IT rules on computers, sensors, susp. engine....

This will give them a taste of speed. You will be faster on slicks, at least in the corner, I would think.

This will give you a taste of prep level. Putting in cells, windshield clips, and new wheels and tires will open the door to what you have to do.

And if it does not work out, sell the wheels and tires and go back to IT. Sounds perfect to me. Even on slicks an ITB car is going to have a hard time in the class you suggested. But it would give them more of the taste you are after, and should not send the prod world spinning into the sun.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The taste of speed? I can get the same taste of speed getting run over by an ITE Viper or 911 turbo better then getting run over by an Prod Honda.

The tast of the prep level? I am doing nothing to my car, I can get a better idea of prod car prep by hanging out with one and being an crew guy for a race or two. They seem pretty receptive to having another set of hands.

The taste of the people (that sounds wrong ) See above, talking to them letting them know you are intrested opened doors for me. I doubt you would see any driver in any class say no I think you should stay where you are.

I do agree with the smooth and logical path between catagories, but I think if the objective of getting people a taste of anything what you are proposing will not do it.

Put the IT cars in on slicks and if applicable wider wheels, make them do all the mods that are legal in both IT and prod. Make it to where any adjustment to anything on the car is not possible unless there is a rule chance in IT, these are IT cars running in prod, they follow IT rules on computers, sensors, susp. engine....

This will give them a taste of speed. You will be faster on slicks, at least in the corner, I would think.

This will give you a taste of prep level. Putting in cells, windshield clips, and new wheels and tires will open the door to what you have to do.

And if it does not work out, sell the wheels and tires and go back to IT. Sounds perfect to me. Even on slicks an ITB car is going to have a hard time in the class you suggested. But it would give them more of the taste you are after, and should not send the prod world spinning into the sun. [/b]

When I say 'taste', I mean 'exposure to'. To what? To a world we have limited access to that we might want to go to some day. Thats it. No hidden agendas.

[zenbutcher]

I agree completely with a smooth and logical transition from IT to Prod. There should be one. The fact that the transition isn't already in place directly reflects upon the Club powers. I think all IT cars should be classed at some level of prep(full or LP) in Prod already.

But that is where common sense ends. After witnessing years of car classification requests denied because the CRB doesn't like the color of paint, asinine competition adjustments, or just reclassing cars without any analysis, the fact is - logic is used very sparingly regarding Prod rules.

I've seen how the rule makers have hurt Prod, especially GP. Would I trust them with IT?? Not on your life.

So, in my mind the task should be, how do we get them to class IT into Prod? Not run IT with Prod.

Peter Baumgartner
ITA

[lateapex911]

Some may have noticed I've been mum on this one, and some would say thats rare.

It's because I just can't wrap my brain around it. One one hand, I wonder if I'm not thinking it's cool because, like Peter, I see Prod as a historically mismanaged category, and I just don't trust "them". (not the drivers or their driving...)

And for that reason, I personally have no desire to run in Prod, either as a "guest" like this plan, or even as a "equal" if IT cars were classed into the category in a "fair"manner. Why? well, again, I just think that the IT guys might lobby heavily to get a fair classing to begin with, but a year later, the story will be different. Thats the Prod way...constant adjustment.

I'm not trying to dump on my fellow SCCA ad hoc guys, and really, the current ad hoc is inheriting years of history....and in the CRBs defense, they've tried to do what the actual Prod drivers have wanted over the years...but I just don't see a framework in the category that tells me the decisions are being made in a logical and nuetral manner. I HAVE seen the start of that...but I think theres a long way to go.

IT uses a process that uses the cars mechanical aspects to predict it's performance, and aims that in the end, on an average track, an an average day, with top prep and top divers, we'll see close finishes. But until very recently, the Prod method used a fine tuning method to adjust their way to parity, and essentially used one track and one event as their major data point. Philosophically, the two methods are worlds apart.

So, I guess, my thoughts are to be decided.

Who would such a plan benefit?
IT drivers? Why?
Prod drivers? Why?
Who would it hurt and why?

In the big picture, is it important to bolster Prods numbers? (Part of me says, no, they've made their bed, let them sleep in it., but then I feel Darwin has the right answers for the Prod category....)

And how does this relate to the Prep category?

Honestly, I think an additional class in Prep, where ITS cars would have a real chance makes sense. As the two current Prep classes have, to my understanding, different allowances, why not create a lesser performance class, with lesser allowances? Super IT if you will. Maybe allow engine swaps, but limit displacement. I think where Prod fails is that none of us wants to dork with the car in the way you are forced to in Prod.....anyway, I'm just tossing out ideas.

I 'm really on the fence with this one.....

[RSTPerformance]

I like 2 things besides the "taste"


1) The abbility to go to more events on different weekends

2) The abbility to share a car with a friend and run in two realistic classes at a regional event. Sure that option exists now... but realisticly we are not all ITS or ITA drivers (meaning some of us have slow cars )... my ITB Audi can run in ITE, but I would be 20 seconds off the pace and have NOBODY to compete against. At least if I was in a prod class I should be able to give the backmarkers a run for their trophy. While not fun to all, I think it would be a blast.


Raymond

[Knestis]

Those are entirely different rationales, Raymond.

What I perceive that person would be 'tasting', is the speed of a National car, prep level of a National car, the people in the National program, the duration and scheduling of a National race...[/b]

Hmm.

I'm with cherokee on this one - none of those tastes are seeming substantive enough to make the idea click for me. "Speed" I just don't get, I guess. The same range of "prep levels" exists at a National as I see at every Regional - some are downright crappy. I haven't been to a NC Region National but when I DID hang out at those events, it was all the same people, if not always in the same roles. I run Regionals that are 12 and 13 hours long, so "duration" doesn't make any sense.

I just don't see what it is that we'd be sampling but I may be biased, having done that gig before. If you want to see a National, I'm sure there are plenty of drivers looking for help, or corners that need flaggers.

K

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

Please help me understand how your proposal helps smooth or facilitate the transition from IT to Prod. As I said before, you can't mix and match the rules, you can't just throw slicks on your IT car, w/o doing all the other things that make it legal for Prod. How would it be any different than it is today, in terms of prep? And what do you do about the IT cars that aren't classed in Prod (at a Prod prep level)? How do they transition to Prod?

And like I said before, the speed and prep level 'taste' is a myth, as you get so few drivers that show up, and many of the ones that do, are running mule motors, old tires, etc. Look at the car counts for the Nationals that have run so far this year. Look at the car counts for the Nationals that ran last year. I'd bet that the vast majority have Prod fields significantly smaller than most of the IT fields. You want to be on track w/ a bunch of cars that are faster than you, and that handle better than you do, go run ITE. If you want it to hold any allure at all for the IT drivers, put the cars where they stand a chance. ITR>EP, ITS>FP, ITA>GP, ITB and ITC (sorry guys) > HP. Otherwise, all you're giving people a 'taste' of is having their doors blown off.

[cherokee]

Sorry Andy I mis-read it, I swore I read taste. I guess that is what 6hrs of reading process papers on dead beat dads, and child abuse will do to you. I actually come and read here for a bit of a rest.

If the IT in cars are tied to the IT rule set then the prod rule making.....procedure will have nothing to do with the IT cars running in prod, these are IT cars not prod cars prod rule makers should have nothing to say about changing them.

Who would such a plan benefit? IT drivers, Prod drivers, and people that watch the races.

IT drivers? It will give them the ability to run national, and will give the ease into prod that is being looked for and still maintain the regional status of IT.

Prod drivers? Car counts, people to race against, classing newer cars as full prep or limited prep might be a little....smoother

Who would it hurt and why? IT, splitting the cars into prod and IT. Prod, watering down the production classes as we know them. Production car owners wondering why a 10k IT car is in the same class as their 100K prod car.

It is up to the folks that know so much more about both classes then I do to make the best decision. I still think it could be a good idea, and might get more people in to SCCA, we need to make some hard decisions to keep up with the NASA's of the world.

The runoffs is our best public outing, in every one they talk about costs of getting into racing. And every time it is a class that is 20+k to get started. I got started with a 4K car that came with 3 sets of tires. I doubt that an entrry level car would go up in price.

[lateapex911]

Who would such a plan benefit? IT drivers, Prod drivers, and people that watch the races.

IT drivers? It will give them the ability to run national, and will give the ease into prod that is being looked for and still maintain the regional status of IT.
[/b]

Could you expand on the "ease into prod" part? If I understand it, any IT car will be uncompetitive, unless the race entered happens to have sucky Prod cars. (I know, thats a very real possibility, just as IT has sketchy levels of competition across the events all over the country). And there is no plan to absorb IT cars into Prod "as is"....in a competitive way...so, to me, it's the exact same as it is now...we run with Prod classes in our run group at Regionals...except the races are longer, and, in theory, all the "better" Prod cars are at Nationals.

Prod drivers? Car counts, people to race against, classing newer cars as full prep or limited prep might be a little....smoother
[/b]

That last part is a big maybe...whats the reasoning or the rational behind it? Just curious as to the line of thinking.

Who would it hurt and why? IT, splitting the cars into prod and IT. Prod, watering down the production classes as we know them. Production car owners wondering why a 10k IT car is in the same class as their 100K prod car.
[/b]

An interesting aside there. I've watched some Prod cars not sell on ebay for reasonble sums...good cars with known history too. And I have a friend who had a similar situation....he couldn't get two nickles for his EP car. In the end, parting it out was the best way to recover as much $ as possible. I'd submit any car is worht what it can be sold for...and in that light, many IT cars are actually worth more than many Prod cars.

But, I get your point, and there is a real sense among many Prod drivers that IT drivers will bash their way around the track, destroying the fragile handmade bodywork of the Prod cars.

It is up to the folks that know so much more about both classes then I do to make the best decision. I still think it could be a good idea, and might get more people in to SCCA, we need to make some hard decisions to keep up with the NASA's of the world.

The runoffs is our best public outing, in every one they talk about costs of getting into racing. And every time it is a class that is 20+k to get started. I got started with a 4K car that came with 3 sets of tires. I doubt that an entrry level car would go up in price.
[/b]

I'm interested in hearing the how and why behind the boldened statement. What mechanism do you see occuring to make that a reality?

[Fi3555]

I've been watching this thread for awhile now and have decided to put in my .02 cents.
Last year I ran an ITB Golf in the SARRC, ECR and at the ARRC. I put in a good effort to prepare my car properly never sparing a dollar for prep or tires. I finished 2nd in the SARRC,3rd ECR, 7th ARRC sprint and 4th ARRC enduro. This year I bought a national GP Golf. Although 3 times the money as the ITB car it is of the same caliber. So far this year I have finished third in three National races (sometimes a distant third).
I have spent the same amount of time in prep(brakes, engine,trans. etc.) I have found tires on the GP car to be $30 each cheaper than the ITB tires(Hoosiers). The GP tires also last abit longer. Although the initial expense of the GP was higher the consumable parts are about the same. The difference is in the development. The ITB car could have $ spent in this area but the rules constrain this abit. The GP car on the other hand (even though an LP car) can go through a wad of cash in engine and trans. improvements.
As far as lap times I've found an GP car is about 4 seconds faster than an ITB car (both Golfs). At the ARRC(RA)the ITB's best lap was 1:49.3. Last weekend the GP Golf turned a 1:45.3 at RA. In case you're wondering the new lap record was set last weekend at a 1:44.752 by Ken Bouquillon in a Datsun 510 (very fast). An ITA Miata turned a 1:43.77 that weekend. What I think you are all missing is that IT and production cars aren't compatible due to tires: hence a different technique. With the DOT tires one is in a continual slip while cornering. A fraction over the limit of adhesion and bam you are gone, off the track. With the Bias-ply race tires there is a bigger window for maneuvering. Sure,you are sliding but it's a controlled slide. You are just scrubbing off speed if off line or avoiding an incident. IT cars on DOT tires racing with Prod cars is just asking for problems.
As far as another expense comparison in IT vs. Production one also needs to figure in body damage. Last season I went through 3 fenders,2 doors,lower sill , suspension upright and a rear quarter panel. The prod car lost a bit of paint on the rear bumper so far. Figure the body work in and the costs of running are very similar.

Tim Pitts
#97 ITB Golf
#11 GP Golf

[JoshS]

What I think you are all missing is that IT and production cars aren't compatible due to tires: hence a different technique. With the DOT tires one is in a continual slip while cornering. A fraction over the limit of adhesion and bam you are gone, off the track. With the Bias-ply race tires there is a bigger window for maneuvering. Sure,you are sliding but it's a controlled slide. You are just scrubbing off speed if off line or avoiding an incident. IT cars on DOT tires racing with Prod cars is just asking for problems.
[/b]

What problems? Slicks and DOT tires are on track together in lots of our race groups out here on the left coast. Sure, they aren't in the same class, but so what? Some classes have cars that vary wildly in their cornering ability. T2 has the Lotus Elise and the Chevy Camaro. Makes a DOT-shod Golf look almost identical to a slick-shod Golf.

As far as another expense comparison in IT vs. Production one also needs to figure in body damage. Last season I went through 3 fenders,2 doors,lower sill , suspension upright and a rear quarter panel. The prod car lost a bit of paint on the rear bumper so far. Figure the body work in and the costs of running are very similar.
[/b]

So therefore all IT cars have to do more bodywork than all Prod cars? Maybe it's the difference between regional and national drivers. In my last two seasons in SS and T in national races, I saw very few car-to-car incidents. In fact, I don't know anyone who had to do half as much bodywork as you in a single season.