Run Group oversubscription

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not that this actually seems to happen on race day but the pre-registrations can get us worried. This contingency is in place but I wonder how it works:

"If a race group is oversubscribed, the group will be split into 2 qualifying sessions. Each session will last 15 minutes. The fastest 40 qualifiers will race in the original race-group; the remaining cars will be moved to a different race group (chief steward’s discretion) as a consolation race. No points or trophies awarded for consolation races regardless of finish position. Cars that did qualify but not in the top 40, may wait at false grid of their original race group in case of a no show by a top 40 entrant. Alternates will be filled using final qualifying times in the order they qualified, #41 will receive the first option followed by #42, 43, etc. Alternate grid positions will be after the last original qualifiers."

My question is simple. Most Groups don't have single classes. So there really needs to be a much more finite plan when 2 or more classes are involved. For instance, if ITR, ITS and ITB is oversubscribed, then the way it reads, ITB cars would be at a huge disadvantage because it says "the fastest 40 qualifiers" Period.

It really should be the top 40 cars within the closest % of their top qualifiers...no? I realize the math can get tricky but...

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

I agree with you 100%.

Also another "rule" that should be applied is that the consolation race should be after the originaly scheduled race. This would allow someone who was in the "41st" spot to try and get into his/her original group if someone fails to show up. If he/she isn't able to get into the race then he'she would be able to still run the consolation race. Sure this is something that the Stewards should pick up on, but it also needs some help from those scheduling to be sure that oversubscribed classes are run sooner rather than later leaving more options open for the Stewards to get in a safe consolation race.

Raymond

[dj10]

Not that this actually seems to happen on race day but the pre-registrations can get us worried. This contingency is in place but I wonder how it works:

"If a race group is oversubscribed, the group will be split into 2 qualifying sessions. Each session will last 15 minutes. The fastest 40 qualifiers will race in the original race-group; the remaining cars will be moved to a different race group (chief steward’s discretion) as a consolation race. No points or trophies awarded for consolation races regardless of finish position. Cars that did qualify but not in the top 40, may wait at false grid of their original race group in case of a no show by a top 40 entrant. Alternates will be filled using final qualifying times in the order they qualified, #41 will receive the first option followed by #42, 43, etc. Alternate grid positions will be after the last original qualifiers."

My question is simple. Most Groups don't have single classes. So there really needs to be a much more finite plan when 2 or more classes are involved. For instance, if ITR, ITS and ITB is oversubscribed, then the way it reads, ITB cars would be at a huge disadvantage because it says "the fastest 40 qualifiers" Period.

It really should be the top 40 cars within the closest % of their top qualifiers...no? I realize the math can get tricky but... [/b]

It really should be the top 40 cars within the closest % of their top qualifiers...no? Yes.

When did you ever see this happened? At a Porsch Club race @ Mid O, I tried to register for the event. There reply was we are full and are not accepting any more cars. My reply was, I thought we had to qualify for the race spots. I was more than anxious to send someone else home, but that was not the case and has not been the case that I've seen since 1992. It boils down to that if you have to qualify for a spot, my guess some ITB cars are going home. How else would you handle it?

[gran racing]

It boils down to that if you have to qualify for a spot, my guess some ITB cars are going home. How else would you handle it? [/b]

Dan, that&#39;s easy for someone who drives (or plans to accoring to your signature) an ITR car. <_< Based on many proposed run groups, ITR, ITS & ITB will run together. Even a poor ITR driver should be able to beat a good ITB driver. I sure wouldn&#39;t mind having more than double the HP.


Good catch Andy and agree it is something that needs to be revised. This situation has happened at LRP but I can&#39;t remember how it was handled.

[dickita15]

Well I have not been part of the supps process for a little while but when these were drafted there was a discussion of process like you are suggesting Andy and I believe Denise has it worked out. It is my belief that if moving a class out of a group into another is possible that would be done first. A discussion of what is fairest is fine but you cannot write a rule that will cover every possible scenario. You have to have a little faith in the people we put in charge.

[dj10]

Dan, that&#39;s easy for someone who drives (or plans to accoring to your signature) an ITR car. <_< Based on many proposed run groups, ITR, ITS & ITB will run together. Even a poor ITR driver should be able to beat a good ITB driver. I sure wouldn&#39;t mind having more than double the HP.


Good catch Andy and agree it is something that needs to be revised. This situation has happened at LRP but I can&#39;t remember how it was handled. [/b]

Dave, no planning is involved here. ITR is a definate unless I die or total the car before Apr 28th. I would like to hear how they did handle the LRP situation. I could only think that if a ITR car qualified as a ie. 42% of what the ITR leader did and a ITB car qualified 40% of it&#39;s leader then the ITR car would go home. Which would make more sense than just sending the slower cars (in time) home. For the life of me, I can&#39;t and never seen this happen. Would this make sense?

[disquek]

The labor day event at Summit is a prime example of oversubscription. It&#39;s happened there many times.

Their primary criteria is how many MARRS races you&#39;ve run that year. The idea being that you don&#39;t want to eliminate someone who is running for the championship because they got a flat tire on lap one of qualifying.

I went and ran that race one year and was moved to the consolation race. I didn&#39;t mind. It made sense to me.

I&#39;d be upset if I was running for the championship and I missed a race because of a problem in qualifying.

-Kyle

[RSTPerformance]

Dave/Dan I think your both on the same page... As andy points out though it is not the same page as the supps.

Dick, as for having faith in the powers to be, I agree 100% that we have great people that will do everything feasable to avoid having to even look at the supps in this case IF it were to happen. However if it came down to it and they did need to go to the supps for a decision because a group was oversubscribed then the slowest cars (40+ qualifyers) from the entire group as a whole would go to the consolation race.

Not the best option, however given the classes that are grouped together you will probably have the same result no matter how it is worded...

Raymond

Kyle- I agree something should be written to protect "championship contending" drivers to have an automatic "in"

[kevin22]

This situation has happened at LRP but I can&#39;t remember how it was handled.
[/b]

I believe at LRP they just added another group, like a 5A for example between 5 & 6

[dj10]

I&#39;d be upset if I was running for the championship and I missed a race because of a problem in qualifying.
-Kyle [/b]

A little story: I raced in AMA sometime ago. I was @ Daytona trying to qualify for a spot in the 250 GP class, I took a 3rd the day before in a previous 250 GP race. In the qualifying session I had a engine problem. Even though I was 3rd or 4th fastest of all the 250 bikes in Practice and took a 3rd the day before, the AMA sent me packing back to PA. Quafifying only matters if you DO qualify.

Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you! It should be, if you don&#39;t qualify, you don&#39;t race when the region over books the events. End of discussion.

[dpc]

when was the last time that someone has been sent home, I just can&#39;t remember when it has happen. I know I am an old fart, but when. Talking about LRP & NHIS. thanks dave

[Andy Bettencourt]

when was the last time that someone has been sent home, I just can&#39;t remember when it has happen. I know I am an old fart, but when. Talking about LRP & NHIS. thanks dave [/b]

Probably never. The issue is that we hopfully will never have to use this contingency plan but it does need to read properly in the supps. As it stands, the &#39;40th&#39; driver in ITS would get to race and the Pole sitter in ITB would go to the consolation round if that ITS driver had a faster raw time...and to top that off, the entire ITB race wouldn&#39;t count for points.

I believe Dick is right that Denise may have this covered WRT the math - she and I worked on it last year and she ran some examples. Basically, you are looking to get the top 40 cars into the race who are closest to their respective polesitter.

[mlytle]

with the exception of the labor day event, the MARRS events are first come, first served. qualifying has nothing to do with getting to the race. ya gotta get your entry in early to play. run group fills and you haven&#39;t entered, oh well.

ps - marrs 1 registration is open...

[joeg]

Not that I have ever seen it, but sending people home would be a major PR blow for the region and Club, so I think all effort is made to accomodate everyone.

At the Glen&#39;s Fun One several years ago, the Stewards had to get permission to raise the cars per mile limits for the Short Course. There are many things that can be done.

This is amatuer racing--not NASCAR. If you really utilized a strict "Go or Go Home" policy, us racers at the blunt end of the grid would start spending our discretionary income elsewhere I suppose.

[RSTPerformance]

I don&#39;t think you ever need to worry or even think about having to go home, especialy if you qualify. The region will take care of you one way or another.

At LRP a few years ago for the NARRC runoffs the ITB/SM (or SSM?) field was oversubscribed. I wasn&#39;t able to qualify as I had to work. I also was a top 3 points champion contender. The region was extreamly fair to me and made an agreement that I could go out for morning hardship to make sure that the car was in working order. Then for the race I could wait at the back of grid and if thier was space I could race. If their was no space I would have recieved a full refund despite the fact that I had turned a wheel in morning hardship. The travaling expence didn&#39;t bother me as I would have gone to the race to watch my brother and my dad eitherway.

Raymond

[gran racing]

Their primary criteria is how many MARRS races you&#39;ve run that year. The idea being that you don&#39;t want to eliminate someone who is running for the championship because they got a flat tire on lap one of qualifying.[/b]

I understand the theory behind that, but am not very fond of that.

Kyle, I’m not picking on you but do want to give you a different perspective. I’ve made the 7 plus hour tow down to Summit Point a couple of times for the Labor Day event. I would have been upset if I was not given the opportunity to run with the primary group for the race win. For those who are not familiar with the Labor Day event, it is a really cool double, a long and fun race weekend! Two years ago a few of us went down there for the event. For the first qualifying session, I did o.k. Once it came time for the second session, I became more familiar with the track and qualified 3rd (+/- a position) in ITB. While on grid I was approached by another driver who is running for points in that division, was in a battle for the season lead, but qualified behind me. He stated that he noticed my times were dropping pretty quickly as I got more track time. He then said that the guy who qualified on pole and him were in a close fight for the season championships, essentially asking me to pull over and let him go by. I was a bit annoyed with this and my response was quite simple. I’ll be in front of both of you, so that way it won’t hurt your season points. LOL Well, I ended up spinning on the first lap. Doh! The whole point being is that both of those drivers needed to deal with me and that is a part of racing. Besides, should I let the entire field go by? What about the guy whose running for second place, or third…

One other thing to keep in mind is that the Mid Ohio Fesitival and ARRC are regular regional races on the books. I’m not telling the guy who towed down from Canada or over from CA that he needs to run in a consolation race just because they have not running for the season championship.

It should be, if you don&#39;t qualify, you don&#39;t race when the region over books the events. End of discussion.[/b]

Nice. This is club racing. No one should ever need to pack up after qualifying because they were slow (within reason). You also need to keep in mind there are several reasons why people maybe slow. The car is classed poorly (my Prelude was in ITA not so long ago), the car is underdeveloped, a rookie driver, experienced some mechanical issues during qualifying, an so on. If there’s not enough room for the person in the primary race, they need to be given the opportunity to race that weekend even if in a consolation race as these supps state.

First come, first served - maybe that is the ideal way to do things?

[ner88]

First come, First served, Why not?
It&#39;s not like registration opens at the track, it&#39;s online or by mail one month in advance.
You can check pre regristration online for car counts, if they&#39;re high and you are willing to drive to the track to register you could lose.
No one gets sent home but your ITA car may be starting in the back of SPU.

[gran racing]

My feeling in the past has more or less been that as long as I know in advance, for the most part I&#39;m o.k. with it. This also eliminates someone from making a long trek, taking time off from work, spending money on traveling and all of the associated costs.

[mlytle]

I understand the theory behind that, but am not very fond of that.

Kyle, I’m not picking on you but do want to give you a different perspective. I’ve made the 7 plus hour tow down to Summit Point a couple of times for the Labor Day event. I would have been upset if I was not given the opportunity to run with the primary group for the race win. For those who are not familiar with the Labor Day event, it is a really cool double, a long and fun race weekend! Two years ago a few of us went down there for the event. For the first qualifying session, I did o.k. Once it came time for the second session, I became more familiar with the track and qualified 3rd (+/- a position) in ITB. While on grid I was approached by another driver who is running for points in that division, was in a battle for the season lead, but qualified behind me. He stated that he noticed my times were dropping pretty quickly as I got more track time. He then said that the guy who qualified on pole and him were in a close fight for the season championships, essentially asking me to pull over and let him go by. I was a bit annoyed with this and my response was quite simple. I’ll be in front of both of you, so that way it won’t hurt your season points. LOL Well, I ended up spinning on the first lap. Doh! The whole point being is that both of those drivers needed to deal with me and that is a part of racing. Besides, should I let the entire field go by? What about the guy whose running for second place, or third…
[/b]

just to be clear on the marrs events, qualifying does not determine who gets to race..labor day or not. it is all about getting your registration in early. the difference with labor day is that if there is an oversubscription by a certain amount of time before the event, those actively running the marrs series get preference.

basically you know if you will be running or not well ahead of time. if you register early and make the cut, you are in. if you drive 8 hrs without registering to get to summit and find out the run group is full, well, than ain&#39;t very good planning.....

[gran racing]

That makes sense. (I&#39;m being serious here.)