My first driver's school

[JamesB]

Matt I dont know the moroso school, but I have worked and attended the WDCR school, its VERY fast paced. After debreifing and a few minutes with your instructor you where lucky if you could hit the bathroom before you had to get back into the car and get on grid.

I never felt rushed as I had a great crew that kept my car ready for each session. The only diffrence is I banned my crew from pregridding my car for me, it had a locked diff and untill they understood the limit of turning the wheel in the paddock I was not going to risk an avoidable axle failure with barely enough time to swap one out between sessions.

Have a blast, I may try to come up for a few hours if I am out west that weekend so I will come by and say hello.

[steve b]

Steve,
I was looking on your site and saw Peter and Dave Lyle's MR2s. LOL Great guys! My friend Jake Fisher (who owns the MR2 on my book's cover) and I went down to Summit for the Labor Day event for a couple of years and got the pleasure of hanging out with them (primarily Peter and his family). Once you get passed the school, contact them and tap into their MR2 knowledge. You can check out Jake's site - www.racerjake.com . I can also put you in touch with Jake if you'd like.
Oh, take Jeff up on his offer!!! (That's very cool of you Jeff.)
[/b]

I also know David Lyle.. in fact he rode up to Peter's with me two weeks ago to get the rest of the spare parts that came with the car.

I introduced myself to jake last year (Hyperfest maybe?). He was having brake issues and I don't think ever started a race. Understandably, he wasn't very talkative. You may have been the guy that was with him.

[gran racing]

That was me or one of our other friends who was also at the event. We almost had the brakes fixed in time, but were missing some parts and it was questionable. Just wasn't worth risking things when his brakes weren't working properly.

[mattbatson]

I think the schools were set up with three run groups. If your run group was the first one after class, then it could be rushed, no question.
I was always in the second group, and think I had it pretty easy.

I have always loved the first gen MR2's...had an 86 for a few years...mostly autocrossing it.

The first gen MR2 is right up there with the miata for pure handling excellence and steering communication.

I hope you can get it to be competitive in ITA. I always thought they could run with the CRX's and such...just didnt seem to be anyone out there that would develop one to the hilt.

I came THAT close to buying the FP MR2 advertised in the classifieds here recently. Perfect car for me.
Just didnt have the coin at the moment!

[steve b]

I think the schools were set up with three run groups. If your run group was the first one after class, then it could be rushed, no question.
I was always in the second group, and think I had it pretty easy.

I have always loved the first gen MR2's...had an 86 for a few years...mostly autocrossing it.

The first gen MR2 is right up there with the miata for pure handling excellence and steering communication.

I hope you can get it to be competitive in ITA. I always thought they could run with the CRX's and such...just didnt seem to be anyone out there that would develop one to the hilt.

I came THAT close to buying the FP MR2 advertised in the classifieds here recently. Perfect car for me.
Just didnt have the coin at the moment!
[/b]

With the Miatas running the way they are, I think the first gen MR2 is destined to be a mid pack car. The second gen is now in ITA also, I think it can be more competitive. If this racing thing goes okay, I have a deal to buy back my 93 from the guy I sold it to (in a few years) so I can build it for ITA.

[spnkzss]

not to contradict everyone else on here...just my two cents.
I went through my first school by myself, and the second one with just my wife.

Before my first school (2004 Moroso), I had just completed my car days before, having built it from the ground up. All I had was some laps around the neighborhood to see if it was going to fall apart on me.
And, it should be mentioned that I am no mechanic, in any sense of the word...

I never felt rushed, sometimes having an hour or two before having to be back out on track. I had to learn how to get buckled into the car on my own, but always made it to grid on time.

I set the tire pressures at 30 all around the night before the school, and never adjusted them afterwards. I only checked the engine oil and cleaned the windshield during the school. Nothing else.

In fact, I missed one or two outings during the weekend (only because it was so damn hot in south florida in july), and no one ever said anything to me.

It can definitely be done on your own. And you should have no problem with any help, even inexperienced help. It sounds like you have a built car from an ex-racer, so you shouldnt have much mechanical stuff to worry about. And you have more track time than I do (even now), so I wouldnt worry about your lap times.
[/b]

You had a much mor elaid back class then Summit offers. I went to both classes and crewed for 5 cars one year, and 2 cars 3 more years. Each of those events they were in the car for 15-20 minutes. 5 minutes between on track and class. 15-20 minutes in class. 5 minute break (if you were lucky) and back on track to repeat. Most of the time you are late if your car is not on the grid before you get out of class. You get lots of track time and such, but I think it would be impossible to do by your self without missing some sessions or class time.

[WRXRacer111]

I ran my ITA Integra in the fall school at Summit with WDCR...

Yep, definitely no time to do it alone. My crew person has done a ton of autocross, track days, mechanical work on his own track car (also a Honda), and he works on nuclear subs for a living. So he has a fair amount of mechanical aptitude, and it came in very handy to just say "you have good judgement; if you think something needs to be changed/replaced/fixed, go ahead and do it. Tell me before I drive though" That also came in handy when we needed to change the car setup around a bit to make it work in rain.

I could tell you the range of times run by the 3 ITA cars we had in the school, but that won't really help you. The times you posted before will be fine... traffic management, flags etc. are all way more important things to do well on. Your personal instructor may give you go-fast advice if he/she thinks it will be beneficial to you.

The observers give in-class feedback about which cars are doing well in what areas and which ones have room for improvement after each track session. If someone says you may have an area you can improve, don't take it personally; instead, ask them after the classroom session "Hey, I'm in car #__, you mentioned I wasn't doing ____ so well, can you explain how I can do that better?" Use ALL the instructors for info as much as you can. And oh yeah, if Chris Schanzle is your instructor, you pretty much won't be able to come up with a question that can stump him, LOL. Trust me, I came up with some very peculiar ones...

[mattbatson]

Yes, the second gen was just put into ITA...I forgot about that.

Maybe it is time to move the first gen down into B? :P

Well, it sounds like the summit school is very different from both my moroso and CMP schools.
I remember sitting around for quite some time throughout both schools...and still getting out on track about 5 times a day...

One of the reasons many need help on these weekends may be that they are in changing set-ups, or repairing, or bleeding brakes, etc...
I set the tire pressures the night before, and did absolutely nothing to the set-up. In fact, we had rain for half the moroso school, and I changed nothing. No rain tires, no pressure changes, no sway bar adjustments...nothing

I checked the oil a few times a day, and cleaned the windshield a couple of times, and kept gas in it...thats about it.

My times didnt suffer as a result of no rain set up...never had a problem keeping pace.

I guess they do things a little more laid back here in the south

I'll tell you what, they move the first gen down to B...and I'm all over it

[gran racing]

The car Steve has is a very well prepped car. What was just put into engine work recently, $6K? It is a great car to learn, easy on brakes and tires, but not competitive in ITA. There's been discussions on this car and fit (or not fit) into ITB.

[mattbatson]

You know, there are SO many of these first gen's out there for such little money...

I bet if they were classed competitively, they would become pretty popular.
They dont seem to be nearly as expensive as the miata's....they are very reliable (it's a toyota), mid engine RWD, phenomenal manual steering...I would imagine cages would be cheap (small interiors)...I could go on...

Out of curiosity...what kind of HP is the first gen pulling after a 6K dollar investment

[steve b]

You know, there are SO many of these first gen's out there for such little money...

I bet if they were classed competitively, they would become pretty popular.
They dont seem to be nearly as expensive as the miata's....they are very reliable (it's a toyota), mid engine RWD, phenomenal manual steering...I would imagine cages would be cheap (small interiors)...I could go on...

Out of curiosity...what kind of HP is the first gen pulling after a 6K dollar investment
[/b]

Do racer's really divulge info like that? The dyno sheet that came with the car shows 108 RWHP. I THINK the engine was rated 112 HP stock

[JeffYoung]

WOW...108??? That's FIFTY less than Greg Amy's NX2000 or a top flight 240sx.

If that is the best the car can do, it shouldn't be in A.

I do think the MkII MR2 in ITA is a GREAT car. If I didn't have 30k in my Triumph, that is probably what I would build.

[Greg Amy]

With the Miatas running the way they are, I think the first gen MR2 is destined to be a mid pack car.[/b]

1991 1.6L Miata = RWD, front-engine, 116 hp stock, 2255 ITA weight
1989 1.6L MR2 = RWD, mid-engine, 115 hp stock, 2270 ITA weight

Nearly identical gear ratios.
Nearly identical valve sizes.
Identical compression ratio.
MR2 has larger brakes.
Miata is a bit of a stroker in comparison, but the MR2 should have better top end.
Miata has a larger transmission and final drive to lug around; the MR2 has a tidy FWD package mounted right in front of the driving (rear) wheels. Thus, the MR2 should be able to put that more efficiently to the ground.

I've been personally mystified as to why the 1st-gen MR2 has not done better in ITA. My personal suspicion is the same as it was for the Nissan NX2000 5 years ago: no one's stepped up to the plate and made it happen.

Time to walk away from the on-deck circle...

(It's another one of those cars I've often threatened to prove to the naysayers that it has potential...)

The dyno sheet that came with the car shows 108 RWHP. [/b]

Without knowing more about what was invested to get there, I'd say there's a KEE-RAPLOAD more potential in that engine. Hell, *any* IT cars should get MINIMUM their rated stock horsepower at the rear wheels. Most pointy-end IT cars will get 25% *or more* improvements in crank horsepower.

Something's not right there.

[JeffYoung]

Greg, good points. The 1st Gen MR2 should be like a 90-91 Miata with better aero.

Didn't that motor get raced in Formula Atlantics? Has to be power there somewhere. Or was that the 2.0 that was in the MR2 Turbo?

[gsbaker]

Casual observation on Greg's point: I've had the opportunity to drive both the Miata and MR2 rather hard (street trim) and agree. Equally developed they should both be running up front.

[gran racing]

One item that hasn't been mentioned is if one can get to that minimum weight, which is an important factor in this all. In conversations with my friend Jake, this weight reduction change didn't sit very well with him. His reasoning was that at the previous weight, at least on paper it showed why he finished where he does. Now that the weight was reduced even further, it looks nice on paper but since he (and others) haven't been able to get close with a LEGAL car it makes his results look worse. I understand that. There are other cars like that. Take a look at the ITA RX7 and their new weight.

It's all good in theory and on paper, but if it can't become a reality it really doesn't matter.

Now the 2nd Gen MR2 is an interesting car.

[mattbatson]

Now, with the comparison to the 1.6 miata....
is the 1.6 competitive in ITA?
Is the MR2 down on torque compared to the miata (and rest of the ITA field)? We all know how important torque is....
Maybe the MR2 doesnt respond as well to the allowable IT modifications as the miata?

I thought the 1.8 miata was the one to have in ITA?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now, with the comparison to the 1.6 miata....
is the 1.6 competitive in ITA?
Is the MR2 down on torque compared to the miata (and rest of the ITA field)? We all know how important torque is....
Maybe the MR2 doesnt respond as well to the allowable IT modifications as the miata?

I thought the 1.8 miata was the one to have in ITA? [/b]

The 1.6 Miata is rated at 116hp and 100 ftlbs. The MR2 is rated at 115hp and 110ft lbs. Interestingly the 1.8 Miata is ALSO rated at 110ft lbs.

The 1.6 Miata is competitive. It sees a lot more gains in IT trim as a % of stock hp than the 1.8 but still only manages around 100ft/lbs of wheel torque. It excells (as does the 1.8) at momentum tracks but gets really hurt at power tracks. Despite the torque advantage of the MR2, I would expect them to both be 'momentum' cars.

It has been said that the 4A-GE engines suffer from power potential. So much so that Dave's friend Jake has done nothing internally to his ITA car for fear that it is throwing money away. The engine certainly intriques many as the Toyota Atlantic series has seen as much as 240hp out of them...but obviously well outside of IT prep.

The 1.8 Miata is a great car for some tracks and a not-so-great one at others. It has not proven to be the killer everyone was worried about. SM track times clouded their judgement...and has come forward recently, some common pro motor 'tricks' have artifically inflated hp claims while not being legal in IT trim. The guys on this site that have one will tell you that power is hard to come by on the 1.8.

[mattbatson]

And with the better aero then the brick miata....it may be pretty fast I guess.
At least as fast anyways...
But, I guess the first gen is now out of the game with the second gen mr2 now in the class.

I just dont see how both of these cars can be in the same class.

Give the first gen more weight and put it in ITB

[Andy Bettencourt]

But, I guess the first gen is now out of the game with the second gen mr2 now in the class.

I just dont see how both of these cars can be in the same class.

[/b]

Why? There is an almost 300lb difference in minimum weight. It 'works' the same way a 116hp Miata is in the same class as a 140hp 240SX. Weight.