Entry Costs Comparison

[Bill Miller]

I know, and while nobody has an issue with helping out the workers, I think the concensus was that this will probably hurt the voluntary donations a lot of us used to add to our entry fees.

Labor Day will still be a double, but it will be held under one sanction number. I believe the primary reason this was done was to discourage the guys who only come out for this one weekend to retain their licenses.
[/b]

That's what I was thinking Earl. I always kicked in an extra $10 or $20 to the worker fund. And while the things I'm about to say may sound like worker-bashing, they are anything but that. It just seems to me, if you're paying for people's membership dues, and feeding them at the track, they start becoming less volunteers and more paid staff.

As far as running two races over a 3-day event, under one sanction, there's all kinds of implications to that one. The first thing that comes to mind is that the cost should actually go down from last year, since they're not paying for the second sanction. And what does it matter if people only decide to race that one weekend all year? National racers have been getting away w/ running 3 or 4 weekends just to 'go to the show' for years. Why would you want those people to potentially spend their money elsewhere (e.g. Nelson dbl, Pocono dbl)? I just don't get that one. And how do you handle the folks that only want to run one day? I would imagine that they have to declare which race gets the sanction number. Gotta wonder about insurance coverage too, since one of those races will not be an SCCA-sanctioned race, will the WDCR have to get additional insurance?

Ummm...they're getting to race.

Things cost more, for one thing, and there are more participants vying for the same dates for another.[/b]

Is that how you look at it Jake? Everybody should just roll over and say 'thank you, may I have another'?

Andy,

I agree, Pocono is not much of a track, and the track mgmt. really could care less about the SCCA.

[dj10]

Well, New England Region is what, the 2nd largest Region in the country? Meaning: Lots of members, lots of racers. Lets say the "average NER guy lives a bit west of Boston. That makes a tow to pocono a REALLY long proposition, esp as he has to get near NYC on a Friday afternoon. And lots of guys just can't tow 6 hrs each way to such a crappy destination..their wives and families just say no.

So, if NER were to race in Pocono, it would add roughly 6 hours to the average tow, and cost almost $100 in gas.....and piss off already semi intolerant families, and so on.

Then, we have to remember that Pocono SUCKS! On ALL fronts.

So, Lime Rock is exercising it's muscles and charging what the market will bear. If WE don't take the dates, they WILL sell out to BMWCCA, PCA, Audi club, Trackmasters, Emra, SCDA, and on and on.

Yup, it sucks, What is NER doing? Shifting some races to NHIS. To folks like me in the NYC area, thats not attractive...long tow, and while it's better than Pocono, it still sucks compared to WGI, LRP, RA, VIR, etc. As a result, this year I'll actually look to toher events, like the Mid Ohio event, WGI, Road Atlanta, and ViR

What else can we do? Well, for a number of years, NER has been searching for a site to build it's own track, and things are progressing nicely, at last. I know that all the permits aren't approved yet, but the town is positive and things are moving along. It's a huge undertaking, but the region MUST be proactive if it wants to race in 5 or 10 years.
[/b]

Damn, I forgot how bad Pocono was, I haven't been there in 25 years since I raced my TZ250. I guess or just took it for granted how many tracks and great tracks I have around me. Like the oil company's, LRP is taking advantage of the NE people, I hate that!!! Summit Point might be a track to go to for you guys? It should be a shorter trip than WGI, I would think.

I don't want to hijack this thread any more. I do feel bad you you NE guys.



Todd, thanks for posting.

[fastbenz]

Bill - Gregg and the others on the comp committee are working on getting a more detailed breakdown of the increase, but the following reasons were given when they asked:[list][*]Contribution to a fund designed to reimburse dedicated volunteers who work a majority of region events for their yearly SCCA membership dues[*][font=sans-serif][size=2]$3-5 for an included Sat. night dinner. Essentially the "worker dinner" becomes a dinner for everyone[/b]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit !

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't feel bad Dan! An extra $50-$60 per event for a few events is OK until we get ourt track up and running (insert knock on wood). NHIS has been SO good to us, WGI event on the schedule and a Double at Pocono. While cost IS a factor, figure an extra $200 max to run LRP for the whole year. Wash that into your annual budget and it isn't a deal breaker for most.

Now if/when PMP comes on line, things will change - LRP will either lower prices or we will go there WAY less.

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing.[/b]

No workers - no race. Some Regions have incentives to ensure full corners.

Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? [/b]

The fun we have. We CHOOSE to waste our money on the money-pit of a sport. If you aren't having enough fun, try something else.

[TAC]

The subject of Race volunteers is a difficult one. As the number of tracks and events have grown they are competing for an ever shrinking volunteer pool. I personally work corners 24 days a year and am constantly bombarded with e-mails begging me to volunteer more. So, most regions find it a necessity to reimburse volunteers if they want to have a race weekend.

[Bill Miller]

No workers - no race. Some Regions have incentives to ensure full corners.

[/b]

No Andy, no racers = no race. EMRA figured this out years ago. You want to run for championship points, you have to work events. WDCR requires people that want to get credit for the races on their novice book to work events.

If you aren't having enough fun, try something else.[/b]

And you could make that very same comment to the workers.

This is really a case of the tail wagging the dog.

[erlrich]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

I'm guessing this is a spoof, right? You can't be serious.

[lateapex911]

Is that how you look at it Jake? Everybody should just roll over and say 'thank you, may I have another'?

[/b]

Well, Bill, that's not exactly what I said, but....it is pretty simple really. You referenced 2000...in the last 7 years, does it not make sense that costs have gone up?? The track pays more taxes, more overhead costs (fuel, etc), has more staffing expenses, and insurance, the region has greater expenses as well in staging the race.

Tracks have found (I've seen a general trend here) that SCCA isn't the only game in town, and the other games are far more preferable. Renting the track to the Ferrari club, or the Porsche club, or any of the Drivers Ed clubs results in far less hassles for the track, in terms of emergency stafing, track cleanup, track repair, facility repair, noise issues, etc. And as each year goes by, there are more independent clubs wanting dates.

So, tracks do whats best for them.....they raise rates to cover the hassles and expenses. Lime Rock discovered that they were losing money renting to SCCA vs the other clubs, when they sat down and really crunched the numbers. Now, maybe they weren't being "smart" in their procurement of insurance and other services, but be that as it may, two day weekend rental went form the $23K range a few years ago to $53K now, IIRC. Gulp.

While Lime Rock is in a unique position, being close to a major affluent area, and the NYC metro area, with lots of people with toys and disposable income, you can see other tracks trending in the same direction. Maybe rates at other tracks haven't doubled, but I bet most have increased to some degree, and all regions are seeing greater expenses.

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

Yea, you HAVE to be kidding, right??

One thing that's obvious, but never gets mentioned is freedom. As drivers, we show up when we want to. And when we get there, we do what we want when we want. Want to skip a session? Fine! Want to work on the car? go right ahead. Want to go spectate? Sure! Spectate whereever you want! Time to race? Have fun! When you're done, you can leave...or stay and watch.. It's up to you. Heck, if you want to go hang at a flag station for a session or two, you can do that too! Is it too cold? Hang in the heated motorhome, or car, or trailer. Raining? Stay under the canopy....

But the typical flagger gets there early AM, has a mandatory meeting, gets loaded into a truck, driven to a corner ...not of his choosing, and paired with either 0, 2 or 2 other people, ...not of his choosng, and then spends the morning looking up, or down track. Then back in the truck, rush in for lunch, stand in line, eat, then back to do it again. In the sun, the rain, the wind, even the occasional snow. Somedays they might get to pick the corner, or their corner buddies, but not always.

Now, who has it better.???

[dj10]

Andy, I don't feel bad about the extra money you have to pay at LRP as much as I fell bad that you NE guys don't have a lot of tracks to choose from that are close to you. I live 40 miles SE of Pittsburgh and I have 3 tracks within 3 hrs of me, Summit Point, Beaver Run & Nelson Ledges. Mid Ohio & Watkins Glenn are with in 5 hrs. Geographically speaking, I though Summit Point would be another option where you NE guys could race.

Jake, as for fastbenz's comments on workers, this guy better not forget about the workers that are injured and killed trying to help us drivers! Where's the guy's head is at (actually I think I know)!?!? There like pilots, 99% boredom with 1% sheer terror! Our workers are like our militiary, where would we be with out them! Workers should come 1st all the time.

[jjjanos]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ![/b]

Well, we always could directly pay someone to do these things. I'm guessing somewhere around 70-75 bodies to replace all of the volunteers at $85-$100/day, we're looking at something around $7000-$7500 or about $25/entry (250 entries). Of course, quality would go down. Forget blue flags. Forget hot pulls. Forget seeing a friendly face popping their head into window as you hang upside down. Forget someone knowing that your car always smokes the first 2 laps. Forget having someone on the grid who checks your chin strap because they actually want you to be safe.

Then again, you always could volunteer on race weekends and get credit towards membership reimbursements. I'm pretty certain that grid and pit would welcome help on a part-time basis. I bet F&C would love the extra body too.

We are having a school on the 24-25. It would be a perfect time to learn your 2007 speciality.

[seckerich]

Well, we always could directly pay someone to do these things. I'm guessing somewhere around 70-75 bodies to replace all of the volunteers at $85-$100/day, we're looking at something around $7000-$7500 or about $25/entry (250 entries). Of course, quality would go down. Forget blue flags. Forget hot pulls. Forget seeing a friendly face popping their head into window as you hang upside down. Forget someone knowing that your car always smokes the first 2 laps. Forget having someone on the grid who checks your chin strap because they actually want you to be safe.

Then again, you always could volunteer on race weekends and get credit towards membership reimbursements. I'm pretty certain that grid and pit would welcome help on a part-time basis. I bet F&C would love the extra body too.

We are having a school on the 24-25. It would be a perfect time to learn your 2007 speciality.
[/b]

You are spot on with this post. It would cost the average racer at our events an extra $40 on every entrant to pay for just the minimum workers to hold an event. The extra $10-$20 to cover the worker expenses is a bargain. Not to mention the talent these people bring to the table.

[charrbq]

Antonio,
From what I've been told by some people who should know, Houston Region has a VERY significant monetary investment in MSRH. I don't know what is included in the money spent, or the rental fee, but I'm sure it helps on the bottom line.

Andy,
I've got some mixed opinions on the worker fund thing. I agree with you that the workers are there for the same kind of fun that the drivers are. I work grid and attempt to race, too. (not on the same weekends, though). I'd lie to say that I enjoy working more than driving, but I do really enjoy working the races. We sometimes get stuck with people that we don't really enjoy being with, as on a corner, but it's never that bad. I've endured horrible freezing wind, blinding downpours, insufferable heat, flu, sunburn, indignant, arrogant drivers and crew, high speed lunches, etc. while working, but I've always enjoyed it.
Workers work because they enjoy it...same as drivers. No one makes us.

I always refer back a few years ago to the Champ Car race at Texas Motor Speedway that never happened. Tickets were sold and the workers were at the track when the announcement was made that the drivers felt that the course was unsafe at the speeds they were attaining, and the race was cancelled. It kind of shoots a hole in the " without the workers, there would be no race" theory. While being true, it's not the only side of the coin.
SOWDIV is, by comparison to other divisions, a weak one in terms of tracks, racing regions, and participation. The SCCA is only one of many sanctioning organizations that demand time from workers. As a result, they have a lot more opportunities to get their working fix than we, as racers, have to get ours. Some tracks pay the workers as much as $75-$100 per day, per person to waive a flag or whatever. Of course, that usually comes out of entry fees, but that's something I'm not privy to. The SCCA puts a $10 surcharge on entries to cover a worker fund. This fund is distributed in the form of coupons to all the workers (one/day) and can be redeemed for a number of things from Koozies to membership to gas to motel rooms. I've never redeemed mine, so I'm not sure of all the goodies.
My point is, why not? If it means that I pony up ten bones to help encourage workers to be at a track that I want to race at...big deal. When it comes to a race weekend, I can lose that much in change. If I had to come up with a hundred, that's a different deal. But whether I work or race, the money for the gas, the motel, most of the food, etc. still comes from my hip pocket. And don't think that driving six hours to the closest track to work is cheap.

We're all there to have a good time, whether we work or race. Without one another, we might as well stay home and watch championship poker on ESPN.

[Racerlinn]

From the distinct opposite end of LRP / MO spectrum, our track costs in Indy Region per weekend at IRP / O'Reilly Raceway Park (be it a Double Regional or National) run in the realm of $15k per weekend, all inclusive, but this will be going up in 2008 as we made a deal a couple years ago to pay $25k for track resurfacing in exchange for some free track rental and no increase in fixed costs thru the 2007 season. We also see about $9k in other weekend costs (sanction, insurance, food, etc.) depending on car counts.
Our car counts are low in comparison to most race weekends and we are very happy if we reach 100 cars for a Double Regional so that we have a chance of breaking even. Our entry fees are $250.00 per standard Double Regional weekend (1 driver, 1 car, 2 days).
We also have a Worker Dues program where the workers receive credit against their SCCA membership renewal dependant upon the number of days they work at the track during the season. It was well received last season and we are doing it again next season.
My guess is "fastbenz" has never worked an event in his life.
And we do not see that many of our racers pony up the extra cash at registration for the worker fund, although we have had some extreme act's of graciousness by individual drivers that will donate cash or items specifically for workers.

[dickita15]

That is exactly the supply and demand equation that determines track rent. Two stories.

I was up in Portland for the Rose Cup an few years back and the RE of NW region was telling me about a regional they put on for 25 cars. I asked how they afforded that and he said it was a park and the rent was something like $1000.

Years before that I was at a national convention in Baltimore and there was a panel discussion on region track relations. One of the panelists was Jim Haynes, I think Jim was working for Road America then but he might have still been at Lime Rock. He was asked how tracks decided how much to charge for rent. He said he thinks about what a club can get for car count, what the entry fee will be, leaves the region a little profit and charges the rest for rent.

[bhudson]

And while the things I'm about to say may sound like worker-bashing, they are anything but that. It just seems to me, if you're paying for people's membership dues, and feeding them at the track, they start becoming less volunteers and more paid staff.
[/b]

Maybe I'm getting a little off subject - I know you don't mean to bash the workers and the only reason I read these forums is that I drove IT in a past life before setting different monetary priorities. Believe me - paying for lunch and dues for the workers at SCCA events doesn't even come close to the definition of paid staff. It's a bargain compared to what other organizations pay. For example, Porsche Club in Atlanta pays each worker $150 per weekend, plus a really nice event shirt. Many of the Atlanta Region volunteers also work for Road Atlanta for various other car clubs and motorcycle events for similar pay.

Compare that with the typical SCCA compensation. Atlanta Region provides lunch on Saturday, the Saturday social (to which drivers are also welcome) and a $20 Walmart card if you work both days. And to make sure Atlanta Region is allowed to use Road Atlanta, those same volunteers staff the vintage races and the Petit LeMans, but without the pay they can get from AMA events at the same track.

Under those circumstances, when track paid events coincide with SCCA club races, its SCCA that suffers.

I still have a lot of fun doing this, and I'm at a point in my life where the dues payments is not as much of a stuggle as it is for some volunteers. And you'll be happy to know that I am not one of those who advocates requiring that drivers work races to keep a license. I know you butter the bread, and it's really up to the organizing regions to use the resources generated by entry fees to find ways to attract and compensate the volunteer staff.

But I can tell you from personal experience - the view from behind the wheel of the slowest, most ill-prepared IT car on the track is much better than the view from the best flag station.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region Membership Chairman
National F&C/Divisional Steward

[CaptainWho]

But I can tell you from personal experience - the view from behind the wheel of the slowest, most ill-prepared IT car on the track is much better than the view from the best flag station.
[/b]

Can I get an "aaaaaamen!"?

Edit: Wellll, unless that car is on fire or something.

[RacerBill]

Can I get an "aaaaaamen!"?

Edit: Wellll, unless that car is on fire or something.
[/b]

aaaaaaaammmmmeeeeennnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BTW I started with SCCA in T&S, F&C, Start, worked 18 years in Sound Control, Pits, and still work a couple of events a year at Start. I do think that is in the best interest of the club to show those that just volunteer that they are appreciated.

One thing that we can do that does not even cost anything is to watch our tempers around them, even when we are mad at ourselves! Remember, they are there so that we can have fun and be safe.

[fastbenz]

One thing that's obvious, but never gets mentioned is freedom. As drivers, we show up when we want to. And when we get there, we do what we want when we want. Want to skip a session? Fine! Want to work on the car? go right ahead. Want to go spectate? Sure! Spectate whereever you want! Time to race? Have fun! When you're done, you can leave...or stay and watch.. It's up to you. Heck, if you want to go hang at a flag station for a session or two, you can do that too! Is it too cold? Hang in the heated motorhome, or car, or trailer. Raining? Stay under the canopy....

But the typical flagger gets there early AM, has a mandatory meeting, gets loaded into a truck, driven to a corner ...not of his choosing, and paired with either 0, 2 or 2 other people, ...not of his choosng, and then spends the morning looking up, or down track. Then back in the truck, rush in for lunch, stand in line, eat, then back to do it again. In the sun, the rain, the wind, even the occasional snow. Somedays they might get to pick the corner, or their corner buddies, but not always.

Now, who has it better.???
[/b]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?

[seckerich]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?
[/b]

Because you do not have the minimum safety standards we have in place. If you have to ask this question you havent got a clue what happens behind the scenes. When you have problems you will be glad they were there to help you out. The workers I know are first class.

[dickita15]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?
[/b]

as to the first part, if we want more and better workers we can make the choice more attactive.

as to the second part Steve got that right