Entry Costs Comparison

[charrbq]

I've worked some SCCA events with people that have some strange personalities that I didn't enjoy being with, but every one of them took their job seriously and performed it to the best of their ability. I've also worked some events sanctioned by other organizations that were understaffed to the point of being substandard. If I have to cough up ten or twenty bucks extra to get the better worker staff out there, it doesn't bother me a bit.

When I come up on an incident, I'd rather see a corner worker with a flag than a camera.

[Doc Bro]

I've done about 30+ SCCA events and witnessed some big wrecks, with minimal injuries.

I've done 1 (one) EMRA event and watched someone get killed. I don't mean to slam EMRA, it may have been bad luck......but I haven't done another event with them.

I don't know if I agree with fastbenz's logic about putting on an event with a handful of workers.


.02


R

[lateapex911]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

Wow, so either you're just a troll, or you really mean this.

How about a real name and location?

As to why is EMRA able to run an event with less workers?
Don't get me started...I've run EMRA events, and trust me sir, no offense to EMRA, (they are running a more casual event, and thats their intent), but the lack of staffing IS noticable and effects the event. I led my race for 3 laps until a black flag all, was demoted to 4th in the pits, and when I quesstioned the (one) grid girl, said "I don't know, thats where they think you belong....and theres not enough people for me go to figure it out, or find out why" and walked away. Um, no it wasn't "OK" and they had to go out of their way to pull me out of line and put me back. (I know a little about race operstions, and there was NO reason for me to be demoted..I had held the spot long before the yellow and black flags, made no questionable passes, they made a mistake, pure and simple)

And lets not even talk about my considering a mech protest that weekend for some obvious illegalities that resulted in real performance advantages. I could see where that would go, so I just kept my mouth shut and had fun.

Having ONE flagger at a corner is fine as long as nothing happens, but having a fully staffed corner is safer....thats just common sense.

Point being that staffing and event operation are much different than SCCA, and there are prices for that..

[fastbenz]

I've done about 30+ SCCA events and witnessed some big wrecks, with minimal injuries.

I've done 1 (one) EMRA event and watched someone get killed. I don't mean to slam EMRA, it may have been bad luck......but I haven't done another event with them.

I don't know if I agree with fastbenz's logic about putting on an event with a handful of workers.
.02
R
[/b]

So now when there is an accident it's the organizations fault ? Please. Is the death your referring to take place at Lime Rock a couple of years ago ? If so I'm sure A SCCA worker would have stepped out on the track and prevented that accident. I have raced in SCCA events with a handfull of workers. So you guys are saying that the more workers you have makes drivers drive safer ? Questions for all you smart guys; Do you think that there are any lazy, incompetent, overweight flaggers out there who could not sprint with a fire bottle for 10 yards without going into cardiac arrest ?

[dickita15]

for christ sake, Rob says right in what you quoted that it was not thier fault but bad luck.

why don't you just crawl back under your rock

[lateapex911]

Wow, so either you're just a troll, or you really mean this.

How about a real name and location?
[/b]

Yup...a troll, and a pretty chickens$!t one at that...

(Oh, and yes, having three flaggers at a station DOES make it safer, all things being equal..It's just common sense...lacking in the benz poster, obviously)

[charrbq]

His name is David Kicak
[email protected]
315-422-0281

He is currently looking for a ride in some pretty serious endurance races. Says he has a bunch of experience.

I suppose he expects to have the corners, pits, rescue staff, etc. only partially manned as that's all that's needed.

[Bill Miller]

for christ sake, Rob says right in what you quoted that it was not thier fault but bad luck.

why don't you just crawl back under your rock
[/b]

Actually Dick, he said it may have been bad luck, implying that it may not have been.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Actually Dick, he said it may have been bad luck, implying that it may not have been. [/b]

Which, either way, doesn't specifically blame the organization - which was the point.

Drivers need workers Bill. Without them we don't race. That is the whole point. Without drivers, workers don't work you are right - but is that any skin off of their back? All that is in it for them is the pure love of the sport and the comroderie. It isn't the tail wagging the dog dude, it's looking at the situation from 10,000 feet and realizing that some areas just don't have the 'perfect' supply of workers and a need to figure out how to keep the pipeline full is a concern.

If it costs me an extra $25 per race to have workers, no brainer. Obviously there is a breaking point where drivers won't come. Each individual will have to decide what his/her threshold is if/when that time comes.

[gran racing]

One idea that was mentioned is hiring workers for an event. That would get expensive quickly. Some have used a per day cost of $85 - $100 to obtain workers. That number seems awefully low if they are actually trained workers. They day is longer than 8 hours, so right there that brings the hourly rate to under $10 / hour. Would there be overtime involved? What about benefits? When you start to add up how much is saved in salary expenses, it is pretty amazing. So what if a part of my entry fee goes to workers? Maybe it buys them lunch, helps pay for transportation to the event, their membership fee, whatever. Without them, entry fees would be much and thus the events' entry fees would rise accordingly. Take a look at other successful organizations that rely upon volunteers to do their business. People can volunteer and still be taken care of, infact that is key to get them to keep on coming back.

[CRXsi]

Where I race we are suffering a severe shortage of marshals...I can honestly say that without them we can't race! We did experience that a year or two ago where there weren't enough marshals to man the corners and all of us were in our cars at pre-grid...we waited in our cars at pre-grid for roughly 45min while race control scrambled to find crews and other people at the track who would go out to corners so that they could release us. Pretty frustrating when you've paid the money but can't play. If it wasn't for drivers marshals wouldn't come to the track but they would find something else they were passionate about to do. Us drivers...what's our passion? Playing poker, playing at the zoo...No! It's RACING!

Anyways trying to keep the thread on track but hijack it at the same time. The cost's at Race City in Calgary per driver is $350(Canadian) for a 2 day weekend. The field is roughly 40+ cars (sedans) with separate sessions for Vintage and open wheel. Huge track time for the weekend for the driver. usually we see roughly 3-4 20-30min sprints, 1 1-2hrs endurance race (if you can call 1-2 hrs and endurance) as well as practice both days and of course qualifying on Saturday. We usually hold a social BBQ or something at the track on Saturday evening for the marshals and drivers to socialize and keep the warm fuzzy feeling between the 2 party's . Many sponsors buck up items for door prizes for the marshals and there is usually 1 door prize for the drivers. Last year we even had West Jet buck up some airline tickets at each event. Marshals generally walk away from every event with a few things such as a event t-shirt, hat, umbrella, folding chair or something.

I am not certain of the expenses associated to rent the track but I could find out roughly if enough parties were interested...keeping in mind that Race City is not as high quality a venues as some others but none the less an OK track to race at with continuous improvements happening year by year. Keep in mind that SCCA licenses are also recognized by our region (WCMA)

Now back the problem of marshals. What have other areas found to work at attracting and retaining marshals...does this $20 fee seem to work? Are there other methods being used? We try to use the BBQ and door prizes and freebies. I like the thought of small financial compensation especially for those from out of town to help with fuel, accommodations and food....but is it working or enough... Just looking for ideas on how we can make it better.

[Joe Harlan]

I have not read all 3 pages of this ugly thread, I will say this though. You can't have races without race cars and as costs continue to increase car numbers will continue to drop. You do need workers at races also but please remember workers are there for a hobby just as much as the rest of us. There needs to be a balance. If we need to give away memberships to have workers then we should do that but those memberships should have no voting rights. I also feel that the largest problem with getting workers is exactly the same problem with getting drivers adn that is recruiting. This club does nothing to market itself to anyone other than itself. The money we spend on sports car magazine is obscene and the information in the magazine is really only going to current SCCA members. We pay for Pro racing to exist and yet in an hour race you hardly ever hear about SCCA the organization or how to become part of it. We spend more money on the SCCA university but what does it do? Why not turn some of these worthless programs into a marketing budget that would gain new members for a worker base. Why not create a program that would allow college kids to gain elective credits by working in specialty areas such as E-crew ect? There are lots of whys and lots of people to blame for most of the problems of the club. But you need to first look in the mirror and ask yourself what you have done lately to solve any of the problems. Start with the easy one first...did you vote in the last election? David is not a bad guy, he believes as many that the club has lost sight of why we are here, He as many others (me included) presents it in a fairly coarse.

[seckerich]

The debate about who is more important is not the intention of this thread. Thanks to all who have provided so much useful information. The amount of time, money, and logistics involved in a single race weekend is amazing. Regardless of how we got to where we are today we must face the fact that all the costs associated with racing are getting way out of hand. There is a lot of competition for peoples time and money (workers included) and we must find ways to give our customer (the racer) more for the money. That cost from National are way out of line is a given. I don't even want to get into the insurance debate here. I appreciate the PM's with some great info and suggestions. Please save the worker discussions for another thread.

[tnord]

i'm with you on some things Joe, but not all, not as much as i was on the ECU issue.


entry fee's keep going up, as i think we're up about $40 in entry fees in the 3 years i've been around. can't keep that up for long before people say "screw this, i'm buying a boat." i think you have to keep entry fees below $300 for a double for average people to consider racing financially feasable.

i don't think we pay pro racing to exist, didn't they make about $100k last year?

i agree that SCCA sucks at recruiting though. this year i think it was our RE (Dale Smith KC Region) created a new position for a worker retention/recruitment chair for the division, and we got one of our divisions best race chairs (Jennifer Igou) to take on this role. hopefully this will help.

i'm also optimistic about the new "street survivors" series ability to recruit new members as it's essentially recruiting both high school kids and their parents. and from what we heard from national at a presentation last week, there's a long line of people waiting to sign up.

as was said, SCCA seriously lacks in this area, but i at least see some prospects on the horizon that may help the situation.

[Andy Bettencourt]

i don't think we pay pro racing to exist, didn't they make about $100k last year?

[/b]

OMG! No. Pro has been a loser for years now. It has a new man in charge and he has been tasked with turning it around. If it doesn't, it's gone. Pro just got it's last 'loan' from the coffers...lets hope they do a good job with it.

Back on topic.

[Joe Harlan]

OMG! No. Pro has been a loser for years now. It has a new man in charge and he has been tasked with turning it around. If it doesn't, it's gone. Pro just got it's last 'loan' from the coffers...lets hope they do a good job with it.

Back on topic.
[/b]

Thanks Andy, You saved me from myself....

[tnord]

i coulda swore i heard when they reported financials at national convention that the club made about $400k last year, of which $100k came from Pro.

anyone confirm this or set me straight who was at convention?

[kermode]

If we need to give away memberships to have workers then we should do that but those memberships should have no voting rights.
[/b]

The logical conclusion from your position is that an IT driver (remember Regional only) who recieves credits for working Nationals would have no voting rights.

[Joe Harlan]

The logical conclusion from your position is that an IT driver (remember Regional only) who recieves credits for working Nationals would have no voting rights.
[/b]

No the logical conclusion is if you want to pay to be a member then you should have a right to vote. All else is an associate membership. Why not give me a fee membership if I run all races held by my region? Please don't try to drag me into an antiworker situation here cause thats not the case. Why should anyone be compensated for participating in their hobby? If the participants don't want to play then they shouldn't. I will bet money that if we did a better job of recruiting we would not have a shortage of people.

[Anubis]

So how far are you willing to go to get rid of compensation? End of day social gets canceled? Remote tracks can no longer spring for hotel rooms so they can actually hold the event? Any type of worker re-imbursement programs are trashed? No more water at the track, we'll have to bring our own? How much would this knock off entry fees? Would it be worth it?

One thing about paid peeps, last year someone I knows brother was racing karts. He headed out to a corner to watch, and the guy was fast asleep. Being paid doesn't necessarily mean you'll get quality.

fastbenz, you want to rip on fatass workers... what about the fatass drivers we'll have to yank out of a car. The driving population is not filled with Mr./Mrs. Slim Goodbodies ya know.