Removing Window

**Sandro** · 03-03-2007, 04:41 PM

Is removing the little triangle window legal? Not trying to rule creep or anything just trying to build a 110% legal car. The only reason I am interested in removing it is because i want to weld a bracket to the A pillar cage bar and mount my cut off swith their.

GCR says:
"Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted. The door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified...."

Says the door window glass can be removed, that is a window and part of the door so is that legal? Also it is for a required safety item and the door does have a Nascar door bar on that side(the pic is the passenger side but I will be doing it to the driver side ONLY.

**Speed Raycer** · 03-03-2007, 04:56 PM

... you need to keep reading that last sentance that you trailed off on

Edit... and I need to read the whole post before I respond ....

**mbuskuhl** · 03-03-2007, 05:01 PM

My 2 cents... Yes you can remove legally. "The door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed..." This is "door window glass". I would be interested in what the oppostion thinks. Why you remove is up to you, a NACA duct would fit nice for some air if you had not considered that alternative. The GCR does allow for fresh air ducting.

**JoshS** · 03-03-2007, 05:02 PM

It's not legal, even with Nascar bars. See the definition of door window (under window) in the GCR glossary. I thought it would be legal with Nascar bars until that definition was pointed out to me (basically, it says that door windows are the sliding part, and that the wing windows are something different).

But the ITAC is discussing this. Now would be a good time to send a letter ([email protected]).

**mbuskuhl** · 03-03-2007, 05:09 PM

It's not legal, even with Nascar bars. See the definition of door window (under window) in the GCR glossary. I thought it would be legal with Nascar bars until that definition was pointed out to me (basically, it says that door windows are the sliding part, and that the wing windows are something different).

But the ITAC is discussing this. Now would be a good time to send a letter ([email protected]).
[/b]

Good observation of the rules. I'm wrong. It does appear you can put a NACA duct there for fresh air though. Correct?

**lateapex911** · 03-03-2007, 05:12 PM

No, I don't think so. Why do you think it appears you can? Remember, if it doesn't allow you to do something, you can't.

**JimLill** · 03-03-2007, 05:17 PM

No, I don't think so. Why do you think it appears you can? Remember, if it doesn't allow you to do something, you can't.
[/b]

What about replacing it with plexiglass so as to add a NACA duct for driver cooling. That duct is mentioned as OK (?)

**Sandro** · 03-03-2007, 05:46 PM

It's not legal, even with Nascar bars. See the definition of door window (under window) in the GCR glossary. I thought it would be legal with Nascar bars until that definition was pointed out to me (basically, it says that door windows are the sliding part, and that the wing windows are something different).

But the ITAC is discussing this. Now would be a good time to send a letter ([email protected]).
[/b]

That answered my question right their. Looked up window and it specifically mentioned, the sliding part.

The only other excuse is that it is for the installation of a safety device but Im not going to try going that route because someone will just say their is a million other places to put it.

**mbuskuhl** · 03-03-2007, 06:06 PM

No, I don't think so. Why do you think it appears you can? Remember, if it doesn't allow you to do something, you can't.
[/b]

I mentioned NACA duct for fresh air because of this ..

"Ducting may be added to provide fresh air to the driver/passenger compartment. This ducting shall be located in the driver and or/or passenger window area, with no modifications to the bodywork."

It doesn't say "door window" as defined in the GCR. What do you think?

**tom91ita** · 03-03-2007, 06:37 PM

i'd send a note with that same pic to the scca tech and ask them just what you asked here and see what they say.

if they say "yes" then do it and keep a copy of the messages with your log book.

i think it should be removed just from an errors & omissions viewpoint. we have to run with our door windows down. that glass should not be there as a safety consideration.

i had to look up window to see that it is indeed just the moveable portion as defined in the GCR. but also in the GCR is this:

9.3.51. WINDOWS
Windows shall be clear or uncolored. Officials may require the replacement of windshields that are considered a safety hazard. All closed cars shall run with both front door windows fully open.[/b]

it seems inconsistent that we need to run with the windows open but need to retain that section of glass (i know there are other reasons, e.g., rescue, etc.). if you want it out, i would use this rationale to try and get the rule changed if they come back and say you can't.

that may make it too late for this year though. good luck!

**lateapex911** · 03-03-2007, 06:39 PM

I'd say that there is no permission to modify the car. And removing fixed glass is modifying.

But, as Josh mentioned, stay tuned, the ITAc is discussing the issue.

And, just to get some feedback, let's ask the IT.com folk for an opinion.

Certain cars, like the Z3, the Miatahave fixed "vent" windows. They occupy valuable real estate in small cars when it comes to emergency egress. Now, add a HANS, and a seat with "head "wings", and you can see the egress is very tight, if the door is damaged and can not open.

There is discussion to allow the removal of the vent window and the rear support/window track on all cars so equipped as a safety item, to make egress easier, esp in fires, etc. (This would be a categorical change, not a car specific item)

Thoughts?

**joeg** · 03-03-2007, 07:58 PM

Tom--9.3.51 is not a definitional section; the glossary GCR definition is the no no section.

Cheers

**charrbq** · 03-04-2007, 01:05 PM

Jake,
I'm not sure of how to reason the removal of the little corner "vent thingy" on so many cars, but it would be nice to do something to either open up the hole for safety or for venting. My car had a giant mirror located in that place that got broken. I replace the mirror with a smaller one and recovered the hole. The same thing occurs in the Spec Miatas. They have a nifty little NACA duct that fits into place of the glass for driver cooling. Now, I know that the rules for them allows such, but I've thought about doing the same thing to get air into me in a neat and clean fashion. To put a duct in the window go driver cooling would interfere with emergency egress, as you've mentioned. I've seen all sorts of hoses, ducting, PVC, etc. placed in either of both windows for air circulation and it all looks like crap. Plus, in the course of a race, they usually come apart only to distract the driver, the competitors, and/or the corner workers.
I realize that the rule might have to be limited to only certain cars made a certain way, but there are examples of that throughout the ITCS. But I think it could be something that could be a safety item worth investigating.

I'm not sure it would be something worth writing a letter to any particular committee, but, since you guys are considering it, maybe it would be worth at least two cents of input.

I assure you my cardiologist would appreciate every little bit of fresh air I could get into me during a race.

**RSTPerformance** · 03-04-2007, 04:57 PM

What about updating/backdating complete doors??? Didn't those VW's come without those little windows in later years? I am not sure those newer VW are on the same spec line or not, so not sure if it is an option but it was just a thought.

Raymond

**shwah** · 03-04-2007, 05:30 PM

The Rabbits all have the vent window - some of them were actual vent windows that opened, but I don't recall if that was the case for the GTI.

The Golf/Jetta originally came with a non-openable 'vent' window in 1985-1987 or 88, and then switched to a single big window.

**JimLill** · 03-04-2007, 06:14 PM

What about updating/backdating complete doors??? Didn't those VW's come without those little windows in later years? I am not sure those newer VW are on the same spec line or not, so not sure if it is an option but it was just a thought.
[/b]

The Spec Line is 85-91

fixed "vent windows" 85-88
w/o 89-91

**pfcs49** · 03-04-2007, 10:39 PM

I'd backdate to the 85-87/small (opening) window; smaller opening=less drag. It was on my to-do list until I wrecked the (88) car. phil

**Wreckerboy** · 03-05-2007, 12:25 PM

The Rabbits all have the vent window - some of them were actual vent windows that opened, but I don't recall if that was the case for the GTI.

The Golf/Jetta originally came with a non-openable 'vent' window in 1985-1987 or 88, and then switched to a single big window.
[/b]

Optional across the line (except, perhaps, for a low buck carb'd Rabbit offered in '84). My '81 L didn't have them, my '84 GTi had them as a low cost option.

**shwah** · 03-05-2007, 04:44 PM

I'd backdate to the 85-87/small (opening) window; smaller opening=less drag. It was on my to-do list until I wrecked the (88) car. phil
[/b]

Yeah but his 83 - 84 GTI doesn't have much to do with the 85-92 Golf spec line.

**Lael Cleland** · 03-05-2007, 05:04 PM

i have an 84 gli and an 84 jetta the jetta windows are fixed and the GLi are openable. its an option from dealer, opening or fixed.
the early wings were glued to the hinges, and latch, they falled out quiet often when the glue failed. (pre 83 ish)in 82 i beleive all windows open, in 83 the fixed option was aviable.(i think)?

as far as Saftey i think you should be alowed to locate the kill switch there, we are mounting them there and leaving the window. in my opinion it is the BEST place to put the kill switch, (drivers side wing)

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