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Thread: Time for IT to go national?

  1. #1
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    Here's something I posted to the prod website regarding the "best 24 classes participate in the Runoffs" discussion. Please keep in mind that the idea of the post is to get everyone thinking about national racing as a whole and not to cast dispersions at any individuals.

    In principle, I like the idea of the survival of the fittest. Introduce new classes and let them fight it out for the 24 slots at the Runoffs with the established classes. If the new classes truly are desirable then racers will migrate towards them. This will work if the CRB and BOD follow their own rules. Evil or Very Mad Unfortunately, history tells us otherwise.

    Over time, I guess classes can become obsolete. The production classes just don't seem to fit the racing enthusiasts' demographic anymore. People just don't seem to want to re-engineer their cars to the level that the prod rules permit. I see fewer and fewer people who like to do their own engine work, suspension work, testing, engineering, etc. Instead it's migrated more towards the arrive and drive crowd and the growth of the spec classes probably reflects that. So if the popularity of a class wanes perhaps it should be replaced, sort of a natural evolution if you will.

    It will be interesting to see if the BPrepared and Super Touring guys will quietly sit at home this year while the CSR, GTL, GT3, GP and HP guys are racing at Topeka. Wink All five of the classes I just mentioned are for the most part "tinkerer" classes and all are having trouble growing their numbers.

    I long for the days when the racing was confined to just a few categories. Production, Sedan, Formula, and Sports Racers. (Did I miss any?). Now an entry form looks like alphabet soup! Even as an insider I have trouble keeping up with the class structures and additions. Can you imagine what it looks like to a newbie or outsider looking in?

    Lastly, I think the BOD needs to look at the national racing structure and how regions/divisions are treating it. More and more, regions are putting on nationals as an afterthought to their regional racing programs. When was the last time you saw a stand-alone national weekend? Now the national race schedule gets crammed in with regional races, enduros, "Pro-It" races, and PDX events. And then the region's race organizers complain about the low national race turnout!! I know that I as a national racer am not interested in sitting around during the weekend watching the same SMs race 2, 3, or 4 times during the weekend while I get a measly 20 min practice (that can be shared with a regional class race group), a 25 minute qualifying session and race. Oh, and the SMs get their own race group while we (Prod and GTL) get to race with SSB, SSC, T3, etc. Rolling Eyes

    If the national race program is going to be the premier amateur series put on by the SCCA then it should be treated that way by the club and regions. It's getting to the point that national races are an afterthought to the regions, IMHO. I understand totally about the financial aspects and that the regions don't want to put on unprofitable race weekends, which necessitates adding a regional race component to the weekend. But do they think about the racers, like me, who are likely to skip that national if the national racers are treated as a side show?

    The whole thing has me thinking long and hard about what direction I want to go with this hobby. I have enjoyed the last 12 years immensely but as each year passes the enjoyment wanes due to the increased hassles of national racing. There doesn't seem to be a clear and concise direction that our club is heading. Rather it seems to be a compilation of various strategies being pulled in all sorts of directions by special interests and people who desire to create the "next big thing" in amateur sports car racing. Why do we need F1000? Where did Super Touring come from? FSCCA? FSCCASportsRacer (or whatever the hell it is)? Sheesh.

    Everytime the "next big thing" comes along, all it does is dilute and cannibalize the current set of classes. The first to do this was Improved Touring, which basically wiped out the feeder classes to national production and GT racing. No longer did regional racers start out with a production car or sedan, now it was an improved touring car that could not migrate upwards to national racing. Then at some point that driver had to make a choice: sell what they had worked so hard to develop and buy another car to go national racing or remain in regional racing. The result was a bitter divide between national and regional racers which exists to this day. The limited prep classifications were an attempt to soothe this divide and has been moderately successful. But what if those old showroom stock cars back in the 80's had simply been classified in production or GT (with the rules sets in THOSE classes frozen or severely reined in)? Where would we be today? Now very few folks start out in a production car or GT car and this really limits the future growth of those classes. And it's now getting to the point where regions want to put on IT and SM only (and occasionally SRF) restricted regionals to increase the track time for the regional racers, since so few non-IT and non-fendered cars show up for regionals. How do you suppose THAT impacts the future growth of classes other than IT and SM??

    Speaking of Spec Renault/Ford. What classes did that dilute and cannibalize? CSR? DSR? FV? FF?

    What about SM? It has really hurt classes in the SEDIV such as ITB and ITC, where people used to start out in racing. Instead, people start out in SM, which is great but what about those folks that don't really want to race a Miata (a VW for example!). Now that SM is a national class, a lot of people love it because they can start out in regionals and move up to nationals without changing their car. Sound familiar?

    I guess my point of this whole ramble is that there really needs to be a CLEAR direction for national racing as a whole and it needs to be WRITTEN DOWN and FOLLOWED. (what a concept). A strategy needs to be formulated, communicated to the divisional and regional level, and then monitored. Otherwise, we need not bother with a national racing program that culminates in the Runoffs.

    Oh, and if we're letting "survival of the fittest" be our guide to classes at the Runoffs I recommend that the BOD let ITR==>ITC also race at the national level. It would DEFINITELY increase the car counts at national race, perhaps negating the need for National/regional weekends.

    Would that mean the elimination of a prod class or two from competing at the Runoffs? Probably...but maybe it's time to move on and let the class structures that more closely fit the demographics and desires of the members take over. In the past when the discussion came up regarding national status for IT, I was against it but over the years the arguments against it became less and less convincing. Now with the free for all that has become national classing, why not? Let's face it, IT cars are what production cars were 20 years ago (rules wise) except for the engine mods. Heck, I can remember when prod cars had to run STOCK GEAR ratios. That was relaxed to allow "cheaper" alternate gear sets, if I recall correctly.

    MC

    Mark Coffin
    #14 FP VW Scirocco
    Former ITC roustabout...

  2. #2
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    a lot of things i agree with here, a lot of things i'm steadfastly against. i'll try and formulate a calm response.

    1) survival of the fittest is absolutely the policy that should be followed.
    1a) i only support the "top 24 classes at the runoffs" to include IT IF we do away with the entire regional/national distinction

    2) regions should put on the races with the most profitable structure they can, regardless of national/regional status. nationals are an afterthought because there aren't as many national competitors in prod/FV/F500/CSR as there are in IT/SM. whose fault is it that a low number of national competitors show up, the event organizers or the drivers? i'm not sure that it's either, but it's absolutely NOT the event organizer's.
    2a) SM gets their own group and SSC/SSB/T3/etc gets combined for purely logistical reasons. there are 30-50 SMs at a race and 20 total of the other 3. i find it absurdly arrogant for anyone to think that they deserve their own run group because they&#39;re a "national" class. give me a break. <_<

    3) national racing is treated as the "premier" amatuer SCCA series. you guys get the runoffs, the TV coverage, the prime run groups, the longer races, the longer qualifying sessions, and a practice session regional drivers don&#39;t. how much more do you want to be coddled?
    3a) i&#39;ve got news for you, in some instances, the national "races" are just a side show. in MiDiv, other than SM, most national races resemble a lapping day than a race. less actual racing happening and far lower car counts than the regional guys. if the regional guys are the ones financially supporting the event, how can you argue that they shouldn&#39;t be given some consideration (besides the benefits the national guys get i mentioned in #3).

    4) "the next big thing" happens because there is currently a void in the existing class structure. SM happened because there was no spec sedan racing in SCCA. FSCCA happened because there was no spec formula car. F1000 happened because Atlantics are dying, and FC cars are getting very old. IIRC, FC&#39;s can all be easily converted to F1000. the new touring classes happened because of mfg support, prepared happened because well.....i&#39;m not really sure. perhaps to try and replace the slowing prod classes. new classes every so often isn&#39;t a bad thing, but new classes without eliminating old ones is.

    i&#39;m tired, i&#39;m done for now.




    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

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    Travis,

    Your points are all valid. I just want to make it clear that I didn&#39;t post this to be a troll or to start any sort of flame war. I posted it because I think the national club racing program is broken and needs to be fixed. And for those who don&#39;t know me, my name is Mark Coffin and I raced ITC for 6 years (1996-2001) and switched to production partly because I wanted to go to the Runoffs and couldn&#39;t because of ITC not being a national class.

    FWIW, I think there is a place for regional racing. It is a good, lower stress environment for people to learn to race. When they&#39;re ready to step up to nationals, then they should be able to. I think part of the reason that some might think the whole regional/national status thing should go away is that the IT racers are used to racing with top-notch, full-tilt efforts simply because those guys have nowhere to go. If IT was national, I think you&#39;d find the regional IT races a lot more laid back and lower stress.

    Lastly, my comment about being grouped with SSB/SSC/T3 is primarily based on the fact that racing slick shod prod cars are WAAAY faster in the corners than the DOT guys and it just doesn&#39;t make for good racing. Nothing personal and no class snobbery intended!

    Keep the ideas coming, I think this is a great opportunity for IT to go national IF the desire is there from the IT community. Who knows, if IT goes national I might come back to my roots.

    MC
    Mark Coffin
    #14 FP VW Scirocco
    Former ITC roustabout...

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    I actually like the idea of IT going National. I am not a fan of how much money it will cost when (if) it does but we deal with that now...If they put IT national they (we) will have to completely restructure the National/Regional programs and schedules. If it was money permitting it would be cool to see a completely separate IT/SM National race schedule. That would be cool. No matter how it is done even the smallest changes affect someone good or bad.
    Evan Darling
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    i agree evan, i would be ok with IT going national if the whole shootin match got restructured. as in doing away with the distinction between regional/national. instead you could have something like a "runoffs qualifying/non qualifying" events. i wouldn&#39;t like it, because like you alluded to, it would cost more for me to maintain my current finishing spot, but i think it would be best for the club.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

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    For those who to date have not met Mark he is a GREAT guy. I met Mark on the IT site & then face to face during his first entry year at the Runoffs. His racing history dates a bunch earlier to the time when he was a little guy.

    ***Over time, I guess classes can become obsolete. The production classes just don&#39;t seem to fit the racing enthusiasts&#39; demographic anymore. People just don&#39;t seem to want to re-engineer their cars to the level that the prod rules permit. I see fewer and fewer people who like to do their own engine work, suspension work, testing, engineering, etc. Instead it&#39;s migrated more towards the arrive and drive crowd and the growth of the spec classes probably reflects that. So if the popularity of a class wanes perhaps it should be replaced, sort of a natural evolution if you will.***

    It is my beleif that Mark has hit the nail ^ on the head with reference to traditional Production cars (full prep turn er loose). I & others would like to prepare a 1st gen Mazda RX-7 non-ported for G Production. The response from the CRB is that "creating another level of prep is incositant with with class philosophy". In my mind being almost one of the racers Mark described above (stripped & ready for a cage 1990 Miata with hardtop for sale) the CRB response TODAY is not consistant with the entire logic of Restricted Suspension cars with Limited Prep motors. I have a 1997 Sports car article to support the Comp Board (CR original thought process. Not to start a fight with anyone BUT one horse the CRB let out of the barn with Restricted Suspension cars is the alternate control arm rule. Another is that after the CRB stated they will no longer class cars in full prep they included the Hybird. Full prep suspension with a Limited Prep motor pleasing a long time Production car memeber.

    My 1st point is, the CRB caters to traditionalsists Production car folks but they will not create another level of prep that includes/allows more different marque Production cars. If the CRB beleives that racers that Mark described above are going to prep cars that THE CRB thinks are correct Production car classes WILL continue to dwindle. The CRB has done GREAT by adding so called Restricted Prep cars to F & E Production. Just maybe what they have missed or ignored is that there are not a large bunch of economical cars at 100 hp to class in H Production. The hp scale needs to slide upward or the dwindle continues.

    My 2nd point is, that if the CRB/PCA folks would impliment identical (the 6/8 point roll cage within the tin top car cab) roll cage rules for IT & Production cars the transition (with roll cage additions/& other Prod car requirements) from IT to Production would be much more seamless similar to Regional Spec Miata to National Spec Miata. People don&#39;t always know both sets of roll cage rules at the get go & they don&#39;t always think that far ahead as would people who have been around a while.

    My 3rd point is, that there is no way in hell that 5 IT classes fit into a National schedule with 4 Production classes along with all the other classes. CRB, make the transition from IT to Production more seamless so that the racers choice is as simple as a Spec Miata moving from Regional to National. Please note I didn&#39;t suggest that a car that moved to National could simply move back to IT.

    This ^ of course is IMHJ
    David

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    Lastly, I think the BOD needs to look at the national racing structure and how regions/divisions are treating it. More and more, regions are putting on nationals as an afterthought to their regional racing programs. When was the last time you saw a stand-alone national weekend? Now the national race schedule gets crammed in with regional races, enduros, "Pro-It" races, and PDX events. And then the region&#39;s race organizers complain about the low national race turnout!! I know that I as[/b]
    I&#39;m a big advocate of IT going National. But whether or not there are standalone National weekends is a very local question. Last year, I ran 3 National-only weekends (two were doubles), in three different regions (Cal Club/SoPac, San Francisco/NorPac, and Northwest/NorPac). So they still exist at least out here on the left coast.

    I have enjoyed the last 12 years immensely but as each year passes the enjoyment wanes due to the increased hassles of national racing. [/b]
    I agree. That&#39;s one of the reasons I&#39;m switching to regional racing in 2007.

    Oh, and if we&#39;re letting "survival of the fittest" be our guide to classes at the Runoffs I recommend that the BOD let ITR==>ITC also race at the national level. It would DEFINITELY increase the car counts at national race, perhaps negating the need for National/regional weekends.[/b]
    I&#39;ve written two letters to that effect in the last year. Would love to see it happen.

    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

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    I am going to oh so very gently tip toe out onto the ice w/this topic. Lots of thoughts right now, so pardon the randomness as I try to put some of them to print.

    Is the value of a Runoffs trophy really worth the increase in the cost to your race car program? There will be a lot of individual argument here, but history has shown that a "rule of thumb" in going from Regional to National racing is anywhere from 2 to 4 times your current cost (depending upon marque). This is not a simple matter of "Well, I am spending the $$$ now, so why not go National racing?" It&#39;s a case of "I am spending $5K a year now, do I want to spend $10K (or $15K, or ...) in order to merely get to the Runoffs?"

    OK, now you have spent the $$$ & qualified for the Runoffs. You now have travel (to & from), lodging, food, etc., & we haven&#39;t even gotten to the spare transmission & complete spare suspension + 2 extra engines (after all, if you are planning on running w/the big dogs, you&#39;ll need a practice, qualifying & race engine). Then there is the week&#39;s vacation that will have nothing to do w/quality time spent enjoying the scenery (such as it is in KS) w/the wife & kids.

    Now here is the really "good part" for those of you who do not want to go for the brass ring. Bubba goes & wins a National championship by 20 lengths in his $50K+ Bullsnot 3000 ITS car &, true to form, SCCA gives him: 1) a checkered flag; 2) a bottle of bubby; 3) a medal; 4) 15 minutes of fame AND (a little drum role here) a nice 50 lb lead trophy to take back to the regional racers cuz Bubba made the mistake of winning by too much!

    Can SCCA add weight now? Yes, they can. But it doesn&#39;t happen overnight. (Look how long it took the CRB to even think about doing it in IT ... over 20 years). Due to its regional only status, SCCA has been kind enough to leave the class pretty much alone except for driver requested items. However, once you choose to step into the spotlight of being a potential Runoffs entrant, things will happen a lot quicker. And those things will directly & immediately affect those who enjoy the nice low key racing that IT provides. Just imagine living in a peaceful little town somewhere & then having a WalMart move in next door.

    Except for the cam, pistons & cyl head mods, the original production classes (&#39;72 & earlier) were pretty much IT prep cars. The GT cars you see at any SCCA race today are the end result of what the CRB calls "rules creep". Right now SCCA promises you nothing more than a place to race in IT. But, & trust me on this one, that concept will have to go if IT goes National. The entire premise of National racing is to WIN, not to just go out & have fun w/whatever you happen to be driving. And any & all "upgrades" given to those National IT cars in the name of competitive racing WILL trickle down to the regional level (along w/the associated costs, of course).

    Racers are, as a whole, very short sighted. They tend to see no more than the car/issue directly in front of them. They will only see how a ruling will benefit them. For example, they will gladly push for something that will give them 5hp ... never, for a minute, thinking that the same ruling will give someone else 10hp. The evolution from the original (pre &#39;72) production car to the current GT car was done w/almost 100% driver input (as opposed to SCCA mandated items). And those options, upgrades & mods were proposed by drivers who chose not to look at the future of the class, but only at their immediate wants.

    Another downside will be reduced grid size. Ask any IT driver & he/she will tell you that is one of the major perks to running IT. Drivers who run a National schedule seldom run Regional races ... can&#39;t afford to. Without being able to quantify this loss of entrants, it is possible that the IT classes could lose their favored status at National & restricted Regional events. Face it, IT (& SM) classes are brought in as "grid fillers" cuz the OA # of IT cars means more $$$ for the sanctioning club. If the entries drop, expect that the available # of events that the average IT racer can now compete it will drop off also. Look at what IT cars (due to their #s) can run at now ... National (as supplemental classes to increase revenue), Regional, restricted Regional, enduros, road courses, oval tracks, etc.

    If IT goes National, so be it. I will not flame those for wanting to do that. All I ask is that those people really, really think about not just the higher cost of racing to yourselves (which you are choosing to accept), but the increased costs that you are forcing those who enjoy the status quo to have to bear (higher cost of car prep, fewer races, smaller grids, etc.).

    Just some food for thought from someone who has been involved in IT racing since the beginning.

  9. #9
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    Old Guy,

    You are right on so many counts. I wonder if as a whole, the SM community is glad that the class went national. Has that change affected SM racing at the regional level as you hypothesize for IT? If so, then that would be solid evidence in agreement with your views.

    Keep the ideas flowing, this is YOUR club!

    MC
    Mark Coffin
    #14 FP VW Scirocco
    Former ITC roustabout...

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    As has been stated in other threads when this has come up, the fears are real in some Regions and the fears are REALIZED in others. There are Regions where National status would change NOTHING and there are Regions where it would completely change the current situation.

    Same thing happened with SM.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

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    I wonder if as a whole, the SM community is glad that the class went national. Has that change affected SM racing at the regional level as you hypothesize for IT? If so, then that would be solid evidence in agreement with your views.

    [/b]
    i would say the jury is still out on if people are happy about the national SM move. i admit to writing a letter in support of it because my hope was that people with the toter and 3 car hauler with 90k worth of cars in tow would go national racing and leave the regional guys alone.

    as suggested, the prep level went up across the board, 25lbs got stamped on the 1.6L cars after one won the runoffs (i know Andy, you say the runoffs result had nothing to do with it), most regions followed the crap national spec tire rule, and SM fields at regional only events are about 1/2 the size they were the year before.

    that&#39;s at least what i see from inside the dead center of the country, Kansas.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

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    With the Spec Miata Regional/National thing IIRC at the Sprints this year there were 27 National Spec Miata. The previous year at the Cat National when the Regional Spec Miata were invited there some where between 55/70 Regional Spec Miata. I would need to look up the results to be sure but the numbers given are close. At the two nationals this year at Blackhawk farm there were approx half the National Spec Miata that there were the year before for several Regional Spec Miata. <_<

    I think without looking at numbers within the new CenDiv the total Regional car counts are down over the last 3 to 4 years.

    ***It&#39;s a case of "I am spending $5K a year now, do I want to spend $10K (or $15K, or ...) in order to merely get to the Runoffs?"***

    Old Guy, not to argue with you. This ^ may be true for many but many aren&#39;t coming close to spending 10/15k to do their 4 races & go to the Runoffs. Many things you posted are very true from my perspective.


    Have Fun
    David

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    Amen to the "Old Guy".

    Old saying: "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."

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    Amen to the "Old Guy".

    Old saying: "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."
    [/b]

    Ditto
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    I would like to say that I feel that national and regional designations should be dropped. It would be "club racing" and the top 24 classes go to the runoffs. I run a LPGP Scirocco. I run regionals because I can&#39;t afford to run nationals against the developed cars there. I run regionals for the fun, less pressure and GP is still pretty well represented regionally here in GL Div.

    I started off in IT, love IT and my car was an IT car that I made into a prod car. Not to run nationals, but because of my family schedule, I could pick weekends that fit the schedule. Plus my GP car is much faster than the IT car it once was. I have less in my car than some of the fast ITB cars on the track! And I get a trophy and a victory lap every once and a while!
    John McFarland
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    And I get a trophy and a victory lap every once and a while!
    [/b]
    Long as the nuts are not loose in the switch box!!!!!
    Bill Stevens - Mbr # 103106
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    Good points have been raised here, but using SM as a comparision might not be entirely appropriate.

    SM is a very new category, and in the begining, the promise of close racing at a cheap price in a reliable, fun to drive car was a huge carrot. And lots of guys who thought, "I&#39;m a MUCH better diver, its my CAR thats holding me back, because the guys at HQ won&#39;t class it fairly" thought they&#39;d jump in SM and run right to the front. And at first, some did....the cars weren&#39;t THAT well prepped, and the fields were still forming. But gradually, as more guys decided to join the party, the guys who thought they&#39;d be stars began to discover that maybe their driving wasn&#39;t THAT good, and we&#39;re seeing some understandable loss of subscription.

    Some guys of course are still crying that they ARE great drivers, but they are being outspent, and in some cases, they might just be.

    The bottom line?

    If you want to be at the top of a popular category/class, you&#39;re going to need lots of talent, and it&#39;s going to cost, .....

    If you want to win cheap, find the smallest pond.
    Jake Gulick


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    Should IT go National....Yes.

    In MiDiv IT cars are used as field fillers at Regional/National events and at some venues - HPT - the amount of Regional track time has decreased and may go away completely in a few years. Because of the locaton of the Run Offs MiDiv is National Racing focused in my opinion. Actually it was even before the Run Offs came to HPT, now that I think about it.

    My reasons for wanting National Status

    * It insures track time in my corner of the world - Regional Races get cancelled not National races in MiDiv.
    * I pay almost the same entry fee as a National Racer at a R/N event but get less track time
    * Newer cars are classed and raced in IT and there are more car choices in IT
    * The ITAC does a better job of adding new cars
    * The IT rules set is stable, easier to understand and creates a reliable race car that more people can afford
    * More contengency and manuafacturer suppport.





    Scott Peterson
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    Good points have been raised here, but using SM as a comparision might not be entirely appropriate.

    SM is a very new category, and in the begining, the promise of close racing at a cheap price in a reliable, fun to drive car was a huge carrot. And lots of guys who thought, "I&#39;m a MUCH better diver, its my CAR thats holding me back, because the guys at HQ won&#39;t class it fairly" thought they&#39;d jump in SM and run right to the front. And at first, some did....the cars weren&#39;t THAT well prepped, and the fields were still forming. But gradually, as more guys decided to join the party, the guys who thought they&#39;d be stars began to discover that maybe their driving wasn&#39;t THAT good, and we&#39;re seeing some understandable loss of subscription.

    Some guys of course are still crying that they ARE great drivers, but they are being outspent, and in some cases, they might just be.

    The bottom line?

    If you want to be at the top of a popular category/class, you&#39;re going to need lots of talent, and it&#39;s going to cost, .....

    If you want to win cheap, find the smallest pond.
    [/b]
    Yeah Jake if you ignore the rules creep that started as soon as SM went national then your right the examples have not been good ones. As far as everything should cost what it cost argument you are starting to sound like Mattberg with that stuff. The Cup guys would never have replacements if there were not local dirt tracks to get guys started.
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Seriously, back in the 60&#39;s the thought was that racers built a regional motor to last 15 minutes and a national motor to run 30 minutes. With the implication that the 30 minute motor cost more than the 15 minute motor. I think that if IT went National, then the folks who wanted to go to the Runoffs, and run the longer races would move in that direction. And those who did not want to spend as much, would stay with regional races. We are stipulating that there would be no differences in the rules between national and regional IT classes.

    But there would be more choices for us (not always a good thing!!!). Do I race regionals or nationals? Do I go to the June Sprints and the Runoffs, or do I go to the IT Fest and the ARRC. Would there be someone who put a lot of bucks into his car and still run regionals instead of nationals? Probably, but what&#39;s different with than compared to what we got now.

    I guess that originally I was against IT going national, but I can see the benefits to the club overall of increasing the car counts at nationals (some regions are doing this artificially by adding restricted regionals to their nationals). This would also provide a path from regional racing to national racing and the runoffs(no guarantee anymore - only as long as the classes are in the top 24!).

    Go to go for now.
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