Hopefully proven wrong about ECU tuning non-option

[gran racing]

To avoid my hijacking the other ECU thread where Joe asked who has ECUs that can not be chipped, here it is. (For those others who would like to post pics of there ECUs that believe it is not possibe but others may have some further insight, feel free to post yours here.)

The ECU for the prelude Dave has is a PJ7 Dave's car has a distributor and Vacuum advance if my info is correct. The ECU only controls fuel mixture at that point and has no timing control Timing curve is analog weights and advance (old school easy to work with) I think at this point you could use hondata to read the OE fuel map and factory rev limiters. You should be able to replace the main memory chip and program the new fuel curve ect. Now I think what I have to ask is. Has anyone with these cars that can't be programmed even been to the dyno to find out what they need or if they need anything that can't be done already? Because the rules would not let you change the Distributor in any car I am not sure how MOtec is gonna be worth the money on these older distributor type applications when you look at the money to value ratio..

Anyways Dave I am looking into it a little further and when you send me the photos of your ECU board it will tell me more.[/b]

Also, since my ECU has no timing control, how much could I benefit from ECU tuning (assuming I don't care about the rev limiter)?

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[Greg Amy]

First of all, Dave, you&#39;re thinking too limited. Remember that you can use any ignition system as long as you use the stock distributor housing. Therefore, with an open ECU rule you can develop a system that does everything your car does now PLUS ignition mapping.

Note there&#39;s nothing wrong with a vac advance ignition system. In fact, in the right hands that system is quite tunable. It&#39;s analogous to a carburetor, being that it&#39;s mechanically tuned rather than electronically.

However, if we were to consider something that simply mimics what your system is doing now, but programmable, then I&#39;m guessing your system only control injector firing. If someone put their mind to it, there&#39;s no doubt that your system is re-chippable and programmable. It&#39;s more likely that the market is not large enough for someone to take the time and expense to do it. Sounds like a project for you!

Yours is more a problem of demand than technical capabilities.

[gran racing]

Thinking too limited or simply has no clue about any of this stuff? If things are possible, this is one area I&#39;d much rather pay someone else to do the work.

[JamesB]

Nice part about cars before obd1 is they can actually be fooled very easy. When a resistor in the coolant temp sensor on my car can make the car run super rich at WOT allowing me to advance timing to 25 degrees at full advance is one great example.

Just think outside the box...literally.

[pfcs49]

Dave-I (a digital dummy) was able to locate and rewrite the full load tables (all you need for racing) in the VW Digi II ECUs. It required making a little test setup (a wiring harness powering an ECM, a frequency generator to provide an RPM signal, a load signal-in my case a potentiometer in that circuit, a fixed resistor duplicating a hot coolant temp, and a Fluke 88 multimeter reading injector pulse width with 2w bulb to load the circuit and give a quick read of dwell time) and replacing the E-prom with an E-prom emulator ($170).
Youl&#39;ll also need an E-prom reader/burner (($150). Put your stock chip in the reader and it will send the file (the entire program written in the chip in hex language) to your PC. Now load that file into the Emulator and it becomes a stock chip. Ah hell! this is too much to write down and I&#39;ve got to go to work. Anyone who&#39;s interested, call me at 0973 584 0161 weekdays; 973 252 9018 home. phil
Dave, if you do this, everyone running your car will think you&#39;re a genius! And you&#39;ll be able to get chips and program them in 5 minutes/$2. I&#39;ve sold several VW chips for $400 and all parties agree it was a bargain!

[Greg Amy]

Thinking too limited or simply has no clue about any of this stuff?[/b]

The former. I read that you fell your car is limited by the lack of ability to control timing, yet it&#39;s possible if you feel so motivated.

You are only clueless about this stuff because you are CHOOSING to be so.

If things are possible, this is one area I&#39;d much rather pay someone else to do the work.[/b]

Problem is, you&#39;ll be paying someone to do all the research for a quantity of one: you. Unless you do it yourself it&#39;ll be pricey (if you do it, I suggest you write a "work for hire" contract so you keep the rights to the technology).

One advantage of the Internet is that there&#39;s this great big brain out there, all written up ready to go. SOMEWHERE, SOMEONE has attacked this problem and written about it. If not, the Internet provides this great "call to arms" for all people like Dave Gran who&#39;ve been wanting to do it but never realized others did, too. That&#39;s how the Nissan hardware and code was broken and how Linux was written (you know, &#39;million monkeys, million typewriters&#39; and all that?)

Hell, dude, pay enough and *I&#39;ll* do the work...

[Joe Harlan]

Dave, can you take closer photos of the 3 chips I pointed arrows at and maybe E-mail me the numbers off of them. I believe this early system runs on a Motorola 68000 processor. Decompiling and reprograming this should not be that difficult if necessary. I still question necessity with out Dyno or Data logging fuel mixture.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/3699687...2d59bb4.jpg?v=0

[gran racing]

You are only clueless about this stuff because you are CHOOSING to be so.[/b]

Technically you are correct. It isn’t that I couldn’t learn this stuff, it’s just that the process and time to learn it would be very lengthy and difficult for me. What many people fail to recognize is that people think, learn, and understand things differently. For example, I have a marketing / business background. My father is an engineer. When he is exposed to learning new technical related skills he’ll learn them very quickly. What takes him minutes to learn takes me several days. On the other hand, we can talk about business or some things that require a more creative tasks (not related to technology) and I’ll pick them up very quickly while may have a tough time with it. What I’m getting at is that people have different aptitudes.

Problem is, you&#39;ll be paying someone to do all the research for a quantity of one: you. Unless you do it yourself it&#39;ll be pricey (if you do it, I suggest you write a "work for hire" contract so you keep the rights to the technology).[/b]

This seems like the exact point of opening up the ECU rules. Based on what I know about piggyback systems, it sure does sound much simpler and often times less expensive.

[Joe Harlan]

Technically you are correct. It isn’t that I couldn’t learn this stuff, it’s just that the process and time to learn it would be very lengthy and difficult for me. What many people fail to recognize is that people think, learn, and understand things differently. For example, I have a marketing / business background. My father is an engineer. When he is exposed to learning new technical related skills he’ll learn them very quickly. What takes him minutes to learn takes me several days. On the other hand, we can talk about business or some things that require a more creative tasks (not related to technology) and I’ll pick them up very quickly while may have a tough time with it. What I’m getting at is that people have different aptitudes.
This seems like the exact point of opening up the ECU rules. Based on what I know about piggyback systems, it sure does sound much simpler and often times less expensive.
[/b]

Marketing is a powerful tool....Once installed you still have to understand what to do with it.

[gran racing]

The level of interest a person has in various areas also impacts this. I think back to my days in school. If I was intersted in a subject I did very well. If I wasn&#39;t interested in a subject, I didn&#39;t do so well.

[Zephyr]

Dave,

I too am in the same boat as you regarding the IT non chipable ECU. For HC I can update to a next generation CRX/Civic ECU if I change the distributor which is what I did. The lack of timing control is a huge issue for us. I really have not looked into how to chip the current ECU to make it work with the factory setup.

Z

[gran racing]

Joe, the top "stand alone" chip you were looking for info. on has this printed on it:
7A1 J
HN613128P
N41


The two chips that are in a row together both have the same info on them: MN6840C

[Banzai240]

The level of interest a person has in various areas also impacts this. I think back to my days in school. If I was intersted in a subject I did very well. If I wasn&#39;t interested in a subject, I didn&#39;t do so well.
[/b]

Guys... come on now... You are sounding like a marketing gurus DREAM! "Just bolt it on and realize a 15hp gain..."... "Install this, and with NO work at all, instantly increase your power by 15%"...

If you don&#39;t understand the factory ECU and how an ECU works in general... what makes you think you&#39;d have ANY luck at all with an aftermarket ECU that does MORE, controls MORE, has more "features", MORE data, etc..???

I&#39;m with the rest of those who have used the Wolf computers in my Nissan... After just "plugging it in" and thinking all was great... come to find out it was worth a whopping TWO HP... and at a higher RPM with a loss of mid-range torque...

There is NO "plug and play" solution to this stuff...

That said... IT should NOT be about how much money you can spend on some aftermarket piece of equipment that promises to increase power... It has been, and SHOULD BE, about working with what the factory gave you and doing what you can with it...

Adjust the wording to the current rule to eliminate replacement and narrow the mods to only rechips and reflashes and be done with it...

And for those who fear the "ECU on a Chip"... you can&#39;t possibly understand what is involved in engine management, nor what is involved in creating square-inches of silicon...

What should be allowed to be adjusted are the fuel maps and timing maps... that&#39;s it... If you allow an aftermarket ECU, then you suddenly have additional functionality that wasn&#39;t available in the stock unit, nor could be "flashed into" the stock unit... Only substantial additional circuitry can condition the signals to accomplish some of this stuff...

Again, revise the current rule to fix it&#39;s flaws, and go racing. Even go so far as to require that there be NO onboard programming unless it was supplied from the factory.... Require cars to have to pull the chips and flash them type adjustments, etc... The wording could be worked out in a couple of hours using the existing rules as a baseline and this conversation would end...

"Git-R-Done"

[pfcs49]

Dave-I don&#39;t understand why you&#39;re concerned about ign timing; above 4000 rpm it can be fixed-if you give up anything it&#39;s barely measurable on a dyno. Weld up your advance mechanism (reduces scatter/gains power) set it for proper total advance, and give em hell.

[lateapex911]

What should be allowed to be adjusted are the fuel maps and timing maps... that&#39;s it... If you allow an aftermarket ECU, then you suddenly have additional functionality that wasn&#39;t available in the stock unit, nor could be "flashed into" the stock unit... [/b]

Darin, for the sake of better understanding, what exactly are the additional functions you speak of, and how will they affect power output?

[Joe Harlan]

Jake, Sequential Injection alone will be a huge difference. But don&#39;t just think of it in Peak power The biggest gains will be in average power and thats an area the ITAC does not even consider when classifying cars. How about a torque curve that is a flat as a table top? How about 10 to 15 % more usable power through out the RPM range? Dave may not see more that 7 to 10 more Peak ponies through Sequential injection but he will see a substantial amount of usable power in the middle. Dyno races are won on peak power, Road races are won on average power. I quit racing the Dyno a long time ago because I couldn&#39;t get the understeer out of the dam thing. You as anb adhc guy need to focaus on the fact that this is a huge change to the philosphy of the catagory and there are 2 other catagories that these cars fit into for the diehards that want to try this type of stuff. Don&#39;t make the mistake of killing this catagory by changing the basic philopsophy that attract 90% of its competitiors to it. to steal a phrase from another club I belong to. KISS....or Keep It Simple Stupid......That is what makes IT great.

[pfcs49]

I agree with Joe: easy does it (IT?) phil