Roll Cage and the Heater

[Rabbit07]

My question for opinions is this;

If you are installing a roll cage in an IT car and the cage has made it all but impossible to reinstall anything that resembles the original heater box, what do you do? The rules say you can't remove the heater core. The rules also don't say you can just remove the HVAC unit and leave the heater core just hanging there. Do you trim the box and just zip tie it in place? I usually try to trim things nice and neat and leave no room for error in case of a protest, but what do you think?

[JoshS]

IMO, you built a bad cage, and you'll need to re-engineer it in order to be legal. You should have ensured that any part that can't be removed or altered would fit. It probably should have been in the car when you built the cage.

[Rabbit07]

IMO, you built a bad cage, and you'll need to re-engineer it in order to be legal. You should have ensured that any part that can't be removed or altered would fit. It probably should have been in the car when you built the cage.
[/b]

The GCR states that it can be altered inorder to add safety items such as a cage. The case in point is the allowable foot protection, that in this car would go right through the blower motor.

[joeg]

Eh...no problem. Just hack up that heater box until your cage fits. You may want to make certain the core is not used to flow coolant if it too needs some hacking.

[lateapex911]

I'm with Josh on this one. Of course without seeing it it's tough to say. When I did my car, I had the heater box in place, and I wanted it to function. I think it's foolish to get silly trying to remove 3 pounds of water in the pipes to save weight. Leave the water in, go on a diet, and enjoy the defrost function in the rain, and the extra engine cooling on the hot days. (I can say that that decision is probably responsible for my underdog winning it's only ITA race)

So, I routed my cross car tube snug up against the box, but didn't hack it up.
I did however, find it unavoidable to miss some ducting, so I ran the tube right through the ducting and resealed the duct where the tube enters and exits.

it's one of those rules that requires judgement, and I decided to respect the intent, and also to respect my competitors, who won't have to begrudge me a hack.

[Knestis]

I'll echo exactly what Jake has said - on all points. We lost tubes to the outboard vents but the rest of the package is still there, although slightly trimmed to fit.

K

[bldn10]

"The GCR states that it can be altered inorder to add safety items such as a cage."

Where does it say that? Not doubting you - just don't see it.

[Rabbit07]

"The GCR states that it can be altered inorder to add safety items such as a cage."

Where does it say that? Not doubting you - just don't see it.
[/b]

9 f

"Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or
other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger
compartment alterations or gutting are permitted. The"

[lateapex911]

I "Needed" to run a cage bar through my XXXX, so I just removed it..... In the interest of safety, of course.........

The cage rule DOES mention an allownance to run the downtubes through the dash...

And we've seen door panels cut for door tubes to fit, but in the end, it's all about where you draw the line, and the respect for the book and your competitor.

[tom_sprecher]

Jake,

Yesterday I spent more hours than I cared to fitting a tube from the door hoop forward to the firewall right where the "frame horn" is spot welded on the passenger side. Even though the night before I realized I should check if it would interfere with the blower I charged forward the next day without doing so (too much drinking and not enough thinking the night before I suspect). Of course it runs right through where the blower motor is located. For that matter I can't even get the blower back in.

After finding this thread and reading your posts I would like to take the approach you did out of respect for the intent and others but due to the location of the blower I do not see how it is possible. As you well know the blower is up against the passenger foot well side panel. I could drop the tube down the door hoop but then it would be at the bottom of that tube and not the best design possible due to lack of triangulation.

What did you do?

[lateapex911]

If I follow you Tom, I'd do this:

The black.is the chassis and the door opeining and the blower motor, the blue is the existing cage members, and the red the front tubes. Maybe a gusset, shown in green if you feel up to it?

[tom_sprecher]

Cool and I appreciate the drawing! I'll take a look at it today. I have NASCAR bars on both sides and they are mounted up pretty high so I think the upper red tube is still going to be a problem but we'll see.

It's real tempting to just leave out the blower per the "additional gutting" rule and move on with all the other things I have to do to the the car back on the track for the required two races before my novice permit expires.

But then again, we'll see. Thanks for your help.

[lateapex911]

Tom just add a little diagonal in the NASCAR setup to continue the load path up to the main horizontal.

If you can leave the motor, i would, it REALLY comes in handy in the rain!

[ddewhurst]

Tom, I would like to provide my understanding of the roll cage to car interior stuff rules BUT the moment I do the intellectual type lurkers will poke their heads up out of their holes.

Intellectual lurkers what is your understanding of the issue Tom has brought forward ?

[shwah]

Tom - I believe you would be legal to remove it in this case. However, as said above - it is nice to have. I do not run a cooling fan on my car, so I routinely run the defrost on HOT during cooldown and paddock driving after a session. It also comes in handy in the rain.

[tom_sprecher]

If I can come up with another way that will not be too time consuming I'll try to get the blower back in. Otherwise, since I plan to run a cool helmet and have to add a blower for that I will probably have the hose setup where I can defog the window or cool down my head depending on what the output of the blower is connected to.

There probably will not be that great of a need for a defogger since most of my racing is done during the hot summer months down here in Dixie. What would really come in handy is the AC on max...

[kbailey]

Tom, remember the Roebling school......I would have hated that without my defroster. I agree that it is worth a lot of effort (and a few pounds) to keep it. I also use mine on hot days on the grid and in the paddock...it really does help.

And on the topic of what you can and can not remove- I had my dash bar run very low so I could position the gauges near the stock location. I goofed though and could not reinstall the cluster switch. My solution was to strap the cluster switch up under the dash out of the way. I think the same logic extends to heater controls, wire harnesses etc. That seems to be a middle ground between "I had to remove it to install the cage", and the "you can't modify it if there is another way". I'm no rules expert...that was just my solution.

[Bill Miller]

Where's George w/ his "If it says you can, you damn well can" comment?

This is just one more example of why the whole book needs to be gone through. 9.1.3.D.3.g says:

Engine coolant fluid, coolant/heater hoses and clamps may be substituted. Heater hoses may be plugged. Heater water control valve(s) may be added or substituted. Heater core and hoses shall not be removed.[/b]

You can substitute the heater hoses, but you can't remove them? Ok, I guess that means that I can substitute them w/ ones that are 1mm long.

...3.e says:

Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part.[/b]

That means I can remove the blower and controls, which are part of the AC system.

I think that to meet the letter of the rule on this one, you can remove the heater core to facilitate the installation of your cage, but that you have to mount it somewhere else in the car.

That being said, I agree w/ those who opt to keep it for the defrost function. I know I did.

[lateapex911]

Where's George w/ his "If it says you can, you damn well can" comment?




That means I can remove the blower and controls, which are part of the AC system.

I. [/b]

I disagree. IF the blower motor was used exclusively by the AC system, then yes, it goes, but in most cases it is used by the heater system, and AC is a secondary function.

It is easy in cars where the AC is optional, you just remove the optional bits, but I think that in any case, the blower motor remains.

[Bill Miller]

I disagree. IF the blower motor was used exclusively by the AC system, then yes, it goes, but in most cases it is used by the heater system, and AC is a secondary function.

It is easy in cars where the AC is optional, you just remove the optional bits, but I think that in any case, the blower motor remains.
[/b]

Sorry Jake, don't think it has to be exclusive to the AC system. Tell me where it says that the blower must stay. And tell me how the blower and the controls are not part of the AC system, which it expressly states can be removed completely.