ECU Rules.....is it time? HELL YES!!!

[lateapex911]

This IS an interesting issue, since the ITAC has based some cars' race weights on their "not being able to reach the formula IT gain %" - or words to that effect. Or maybe it's a non-issue, if the current weights were all figured based on the POSSIBILITY that all FI cars could do Haltech-in-a-box kind of stuff, rather than on the different question of whether anyone was actually DOING it??

K [/b]

I'll quote myself from post #1 on the other thread:

What I mean by that it that the process the ITAC uses basically assumes that most cars will acheive a certain % increase in the IT build, and the ECU mods are considered to be part of that increase.[/b]

So, yes, the basis for the process that is applied to all cars assumes that the ECU gains will be there. If the ECU can't fit in the box, thats not considered, as in some cases, the car can make nearly all but the last couple percent (of the potential ECU gains) with chip tuning and other methods. And in some casses, the car won't be able to acheive any kind of increase, but thats considered the lesser evil.

In cases where a car has either well documented known hp, or has other physical propeties that are known to affect it's output, there can be discussion about the process, but in general, it is assumed that the car will be able to exploit the ECU rule, whether it can or not.

[dj10]

Bad argument Dan, At least with the factory system there is a chance to use a factory manual and scan to to correct the problem. Or you could actually run the car down tio a dealer.How are you going to resolve an issue with your motec at the track with no factory support? I am very curioous Dan, How many of these systems havfe you had hands on experience with? How much actual programming of a Motec,Haltec, AEM, Megasquirt, ect have you done. I am also curious in a effort to get full disclosure. Does your race car already have a Motec in the box that you are afraid to loose? Believe me if Turners guys couldn't figure it out they would have had just as much trouble with any aftermarket system out there.

edit: on a side note Dan, I am an AEM dealer I sell and program Motec. I am fully able to stick either in an OEM box. I could stand to make a boatload of money by doing all of these things. I believe IT is betteroff without this level of prep becoming a requirement to run up front. I am also of the belief that there are a great number of cars that will have to be moved if an open rule is created. imagine Dave Gran's Honda...ITB 2.0 liter with sequential injection and full timing maps with no rev-limiter. I am thinking it is now an ITA car, Dave now has to buy all new rims.
ITA 240sx, OPen up the rules and it will end up an ITS car how many guys are ready for that? These classes have a reasonable balance that will be disrupted by an open rule. And finally as has been stated and backed up by others The new technology is improving to the point that the OEM's are trying to grab every ounce of power out of the factory ECU and program that the gains or losses of a stock unit with be part of the classification process. [/b]

Joe,

Just so you realize just because we might disagree don't think for one minute I don't respect and appriciate your knowledge and imput. You are right, I am relying on 2nd hand info from like yourself, professional tuners. "Does your race car already have a Motec in the box that you are afraid to loose?" No it doesn't Joe, I am running a stock, unaltered ECU, with the exception of the chip.

"The new technology is improving to the point that the OEM's are trying to grab every ounce of power out of the factory ECU and program that the gains or losses of a stock unit with be part of the classification process." When have you ever found a stock ecu that you couldn't improve? They are tuned for safe engine performance.

"At least with the factory system there is a chance to use a factory manual and scan to to correct the problem. Or you could actually run the car down tio a dealer." Actually, I be sending back to the person who flashed the damn thing in the 1st place. So now I'm down for how long waiting for my ecu to be repaired. What about the initial setup for a flashed unit? Who's going to take it to the dyno to make sure everything is in correct parameters? Flashing ecu's I beleive will end up costing the average racer way more money that a ECU. From what I hear and maybe you could vouch for this, the systems, like Haltech and Motec are very reliable once installed and are easily managed with a laptop.

My last question, if tuning and obd2 is so easy and cheap, why are so many people having problems with them (from what I hear)?

Dan

[tnord]

What about the initial setup for a flashed unit? Who's going to take it to the dyno to make sure everything is in correct parameters?
[/b]

what about the initial setup for a standalone ECU? who's going to take it to the dyno to make sure everything is in correct parameters? no difference between the two in that regard, but the standalone unit is more work (and expense) to even get to communicate with all the sensors. you're rewiring everything that talks to the ECU right from the get-go, and that makes things way more complicated (and expensive). then once you get there, you're starting from literally zero. have fun tuning and getting all your variable valve and cam timing setup right, multiple-runner throttle bodies, electronic throttles, electronic thermostats, and whatever other jibberish the ECU runs these days. these things are already set if you start with the OEM ecu and just reflash it.....i think.

Flashing ecu's I beleive will end up costing the average racer way more money that a ECU.
[/b]

huh?
more expensive hardware, more time to setup, and likely more time on the dyno.....how does that equate to the reflash costing more?

[dj10]

"first off, i'm 26, grew up with PCs, and currently sit in front of one all day every day at work. second, i did everything on my car other than the cage, including building my own engine, so i'm not intimidated by DIY or trying something new."



Travis, I happy to see you expressing yourself, most peopl your age don't give a hoot. The 1st computer was a IBM 360 I worked on.;~)


"second, if you go back to the original ECU thread jake created a couple months back, i was one of the first people to jump on the "open it up" bandwagon largely in part to the ECU issues new cars present, so i do understand and recognize the problems that might come up with new cars."



So you are off the bandwagon, but are you supporting the ecu rule as it is now? Do you think it is fair?


"but those are problems we don't have just yet. you can't make a rule based on what MIGHT be, only on what currently is. how do we know that turner, speedsource, joe, etc won't figure out a way to do everything we need via chip or reflash only? now we just created a rule that opened up a whole mess of issues and caused a lot of people a ton of work for no reason. i think we'd be fools to guess how things turn out in the tuning market and what our ECU needs will be 10yrs from now."



Just because I'm a proponent of opening up the euc rule, I can go either way, like I said I run a stock ecu. I'm only think of the poor SOB's that other systems that are having major problems getting their car tuned. I don't want to go throught this rule every year, do you?


"i really think we need to wait a year to see what ECU issues show up in all the new ITR cars before we make a change."



So leave the existing rule?

i'm curious, what was turner having problems with on their ECU under touring rules that they wouldn't have had under "open" rules? i watched that thing run with my own 2 eyes at the runoffs, and they had it figured out just fine, except for they hadn't figured out that toyos won't last a whole race. that is, if they were on toyos, i just assumed they were based on the whole car wearing huge toyo logos.

[/b]

Yes he was on Toyo's As for his obd2, he got it right but can we if we had obd2 systems in our car now?

what about the initial setup for a standalone ECU? who's going to take it to the dyno to make sure everything is in correct parameters? no difference between the two in that regard, but the standalone unit is more work (and expense) to even get to communicate with all the sensors. you're rewiring everything that talks to the ECU right from the get-go, and that makes things way more complicated (and expensive). then once you get there, you're starting from literally zero. have fun tuning and getting all your variable valve and cam timing setup right, multiple-runner throttle bodies, electronic throttles, electronic thermostats, and whatever other jibberish the ECU runs these days. these things are already set if you start with the OEM ecu and just reflash it.....i think.
huh?
more expensive hardware, more time to setup, and likely more time on the dyno.....how does that equate to the reflash costing more?
[/b]

Can you reflash your own ecu? How do you get it tuned correctly? How can you make adjustments on the dyno that someone else has flashed across the US?

[Joe Harlan]

To Start Dan, Manufactures want to sell cars. They know the market is driven by cars that make power and extract every ounce of power out of every drop of fuel placed into them today. THe percentage of gain in an OBDII system is again not likely to be a hugh peak number. it is likely to be fine tuning for the area we use the engine. 2 cars I know (and can't share actual numbers) 350 vs 300zx. There was more hp found in the 300ZX with a chip than was the 350z. This was because the 350z ecu was built to extract everything. The 300ZX was not as refined.

From what I hear and maybe you could vouch for this, the systems, like Haltech and Motec are very reliable once installed and are easily managed with a laptop. Not true. I would bet they are no more reliable than any other electrical item. Now if a stock ECU can be picked up in a bone yard for 5 bucks chipped and reflashed by a professional for 450 bucks you have a decent spare for under 600 bucks for mot cars. Spare Motec= 2k minimum, Spare AEM 1500 minimum

My last question, if tuning and obd2 is so easy and cheap, why are so many people having problems with them (from what I hear)? Again you are going on what you hear and exactly how many people are you hearing it from. I burned exactly 3 boxes for the 2 350z's we did and never installed the spare. This is exactly why I am asking you these questions because I fear that you are getting not so good information or only using the parts of it you want to push this change.

As I stated before I could make a boatload selling and tuning kits but I don't believe the change will be good for IT in the end.

[dj10]

To Start Dan, Manufactures want to sell cars. They know the market is driven by cars that make power and extract every ounce of power out of every drop of fuel placed into them today. THe percentage of gain in an OBDII system is again not likely to be a hugh peak number. it is likely to be fine tuning for the area we use the engine. 2 cars I know (and can't share actual numbers) 350 vs 300zx. There was more hp found in the 300ZX with a chip than was the 350z. This was because the 350z ecu was built to extract everything. The 300ZX was not as refined.

From what I hear and maybe you could vouch for this, the systems, like Haltech and Motec are very reliable once installed and are easily managed with a laptop. Not true. I would bet they are no more reliable than any other electrical item. Now if a stock ECU can be picked up in a bone yard for 5 bucks chipped and reflashed by a professional for 450 bucks you have a decent spare for under 600 bucks for mot cars. Spare Motec= 2k minimum, Spare AEM 1500 minimum

My last question, if tuning and obd2 is so easy and cheap, why are so many people having problems with them (from what I hear)? Again you are going on what you hear and exactly how many people are you hearing it from. I burned exactly 3 boxes for the 2 350z's we did and never installed the spare. This is exactly why I am asking you these questions because I fear that you are getting not so good information or only using the parts of it you want to push this change.

As I stated before I could make a boatload selling and tuning kits but I don't believe the change will be good for IT in the end.
[/b]

Joe when you do a 300zx, do you flash the ecu as well as tuning with a chip? Yea 600.00 is cheap but how do you deal with dyno time to setup the ecu on a dyno tuned to the engine? Like I told you I have a obd1 and this is no sweat off my ass which ever way this goes. I do know the current ecu "rule has to be changed".

Dan

[pfcs49]

"We have one running here in the NE that has a complete system in the stock box. Quite an ingenious setup. I will ask about his power result, but his on track performance hasn't shown any significant difference. "
QUOTE: Jake Gulick

I have a big problem with a member of the ITAC reffering to something that's clearly illegal as "ingenious"
Do you understand this stuff Jake?? phil

[tnord]

[/b]

So you are off the bandwagon, but are you supporting the ecu rule as it is now? Do you think it is fair?
[/b]

yup, i'm off the "open it up bandwagon." i don't support the current rule either, but i think we can make a more informed and better decision next december after the ITR (read: OBDII and newer) cars have had at least some time to sort things out.

Can you reflash your own ecu? How do you get it tuned correctly? How can you make adjustments on the dyno that someone else has flashed across the US?
[/b]

i think you can on some cars can't you? for OBDII cars don't you chip the things then tune through the diagnostic port?

and like i said, the cost for dyno tuning for either a reflash/chip or standalone unit won't likely be that much different for purposes of tuning. but the expense and time to setup the standalone unit just to get a baseline is far greater and way more complicated.

[dj10]

" i don't support the current rule either,[/b]

We deffinately agree on this!

[Banzai240]

yup, i'm off the "open it up bandwagon." i don't support the current rule either,
[/b]

Now you just need to jump on the "remove the words 'or replace' and refine the existing wording to limit the rule" bandwagon! Limit the wording to allow refinement of the fuel and timing maps (if applicable), but to NOT allow additional circuitry or functionality, and you'll have a step in the RIGHT direction for IT as a class...

[Joe Harlan]

Joe when you do a 300zx, do you flash the ecu as well as tuning with a chip? Yea 600.00 is cheap but how do you deal with dyno time to setup the ecu on a dyno tuned to the engine? Like I told you I have a obd1 and this is no sweat off my ass which ever way this goes. I do know the current ecu "rule has to be changed".

Dan
[/b]

Dan your gonna have dyno time no matter what you do? Some how I think you have been sold on the idea you plug this magical bax it and make instant power? The 300zx boxes I have done are OBD1 and require the same mods as the 240sx ecu. Flashing is just a term for reprogramming a chip. I posted several great links to get an education on this stuff I am not going to try to type all of that information.

Yes the rule needs fixed to close a big money eating loophole.

[pfcs49]

What makes "chip tuning" so much simpler than stand-alone is that the basic map has been written by the manufacturer, you just have to move the roads a little. (and only 4000rpm^/full load)
With stand-alone, you're starting in a deep forest with a blank piece of paper. Now figure out all data points from coldstart/idle on up including acceleration enrichment up to full load, and don't waste any time while you're on the dyno! KISS! (keep it simple, stupid!) phil

[tnord]

Now you just need to jump on the "remove the words 'or replace' and refine the existing wording to limit the rule" bandwagon! Limit the wording to allow refinement of the fuel and timing maps (if applicable), but to NOT allow additional circuitry or functionality, and you'll have a step in the RIGHT direction for IT as a class...
[/b]

i don't pretend to know how to write solid rules. i only know what i want the intent of the rulewriters to be, and that's to get rid of standalones in a box, and replace that with the ability to chip the stock ECU and tune ignition, fuel, rev limit, speed limit, and any other variable cam/valve timing. based on how joe says it's done, i realize you can't get rid of TC, but i will administer my own form of marshall law upon these princesses as previously mentioned.

[dj10]

Dan your gonna have dyno time no matter what you do? Some how I think you have been sold on the idea you plug this magical bax it and make instant power? The 300zx boxes I have done are OBD1 and require the same mods as the 240sx ecu. Flashing is just a term for reprogramming a chip. I posted several great links to get an education on this stuff I am not going to try to type all of that information.

Yes the rule needs fixed to close a big money eating loophole.
[/b]

I guess what I meant to ask, whas there anything additional that was done to the obd1 box other than making a new chip? I know about computers, you don't snap your fingers and everything is installed and setup. I do feel for the people that have stuffed their old ecu's boxes. If you allow a open ecu rule they will at least be able to not have pissed away all their money in vain and would be able to continue to use their systems. By reverting back to stock ecu's, how much will they have to spend to set up their cars again? I believe opening up the ECU rule may be the most fair, but as you suggest what will come out of the can when you open the rule up is another question. Someone's going to get hurt no matter which way this plays out I'm afraid.

Dan

[Joe Harlan]

I guess what I meant to ask, whas there anything additional that was done to the obd1 box other than making a new chip? I know about computers, you don't snap your fingers and everything is installed and setup. I do feel for the people that have stuffed their old ecu's boxes. If you allow a open ecu rule they will at least be able to not have pissed away all their money in vain and would be able to continue to use their systems. By reverting back to stock ecu's, how much will they have to spend to set up their cars again? I believe opening up the ECU rule may be the most fair, but as you suggest what will come out of the can when you open the rule up is another question. Someone's going to get hurt no matter which way this plays out I'm afraid.
Dan
[/b]

My money says there are far less people that have exploited this rule than there are in the other catagory.

As far as other things done to the ECU. In the case of the early 240sx you have to desolder and solder in a socket, other Nissan stuff requires a small daughter board to handle the chip. As I stated folloow some of the links I posted an dget a quick education on some of this stuff. Go to AEM or Motec and download their demo software and see just how much you think the average IT racer wants to deal with.

[dj10]

[quote]

Dan,

Remember, there are guys on the ITAC with active programmable units, guys with the money spent but not active yet (me), and guys with nothing in the works. While we would all like the change (if there is one) to happen immediatetly, I am not sure it can. Since my money is tied up already, I am going to continue my development, run 2007 with a programmable unit and act per the rules in 2008. I WISH I was in your shoes right now.
/quote]



Andy, I can honestly say, I'm glad I'm not in your shoes right now. I or we haven't hear from the newbie ITAC member, Mr. Lytle. I think he told me he was running a Stock ecu. I'm wondering what his take is on this?

[Z3_GoCar]

is it really a kit you bolt on though? a complete standalone system that you have to figure out how to get all of your sensors to talk to, and rewire everything going to the ECU. at this point you've still got a car that doesn't necessairly run. those oddball cars that don't have easy solutions for a chip/reflash won't have an easy solution for standalone EMS either. you'll be on your own.

off to the dyno you go....

....
that doesn't sound like IT to me, sounds like prepared.
[/b]

It really is that easy. Plug the correct sensors in and they talk to the standalone. Furthermore, there are dealers across the nation that can do the tuning too. Unlike stock ecu's where you have to find the few who do the tuning, and they may be a coast away. What sounds like Production is parsing the built in hex code then determining which few bit's to change, then what do you change them too? Wow, that's a real tinker's project. Look at the dealers on the Motec site, you'll find at least one less than 1000 miles from anyone (including the Dakota's.) I've got 5 Electromotive dealers in the LA basin alone. From the built in map it only took three hours of dyno time to find my ideal settings.

[Joe Harlan]

It really is that easy. Plug the correct sensors in and they talk to the standalone. Furthermore, there are dealers across the nation that can do the tuning too. Unlike stock ecu's where you have to find the few who do the tuning, and they may be a coast away. What sounds like Production is parsing the built in hex code then determining which few bit's to change, then what do you change them too? Wow, that's a real tinker's project. Look at the dealers on the Motec site, you'll find at least one less than 1000 miles from anyone (including the Dakota's.) I've got 5 Electromotive dealers in the LA basin alone. From the built in map it only took three hours of dyno time to find my ideal settings.
[/b]

James, I will ask you. How many systems have you installed tuned or anything else?

[lateapex911]

"We have one running here in the NE that has a complete system in the stock box. Quite an ingenious setup. I will ask about his power result, but his on track performance hasn't shown any significant difference. "
QUOTE: Jake Gulick

I have a big problem with a member of the ITAC reffering to something that's clearly illegal as "ingenious"
Do you understand this stuff Jake?? phil
[/b]

But Phil, I have a problem with you branding what he has done as illegal, and I say that based on the fact that you are reacting to what he has written, as opposed to what you've see.

What exactly is illegal about it? From what I have been told, his solution is legal, and rather ingenious. Prove me wrong, or protest him, but until that point, dragging acccuatrions across the net doesn't cut it.

(If the info I have gotten is incorrect, and I'm wrong, I apologise, but my info says he's got a good setup)

[pfcs49]

"I could have SWORN I was shooting the breeze with a Volvo guy, and we were talking ECUs...and I really thought I saw a stock vacuum line running to the ECU box...

So, if thats the case, he's good to go, right?" Jake Gulick, about 3 pages back.

As pointed out previously: how can you get a vacuum liine through an un-modified ECU case without violating the current rule? Clearly it constiutes a modification to the case and clearly it's illegal. Correct me if I'm wrong, phil.