Motor/ Trans mounts

[JoshS]

So what exactly *is* an "engine stayrod?" There's no definition in the GCR.

[ddewhurst]

Josh, there is a definition of "Stayrod" with reference to the car structure. Engine Stayrod connects engine to car structure.

[88YB1]

2007 GCR
page 128. Stayrod - A rigid reinforcement bar or rod interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations.
page 116 Engine Steady Bar (torque suppressor) - A constraining beam or rod intended to resist the terndency of an engine to rotate on it's mounts in reaction to torque forces.

ITC page 298 D-1-r One (1) engine stayrod may be added. No definetion of an ENGINE stayrod is given in the GCR.

Chuck

[JLawton]

I posted it, a trusted friend replied, [/b]

Trusting me was your first mistake!! You notice I don't chime in too often on rules interpretation. However, having dealt with this in a previous car, I am now a motor mount rules nerd!!

[RacerBill]

2007 GCR
page 128. Stayrod - A rigid reinforcement bar or rod interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations.
page 116 Engine Steady Bar (torque suppressor) - A constraining beam or rod intended to resist the terndency of an engine to rotate on it's mounts in reaction to torque forces.

ITC page 298 D-1-r One (1) engine stayrod may be added. No definetion of an ENGINE stayrod is given in the GCR.

Chuck
[/b]

OK, If one (1) engine stayrod may be added, can you substitute one for the factory installed stayrod?

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, If one (1) engine stayrod may be added, can you substitute one for the factory installed stayrod? [/b]

No. Added is added, substituted is substituted.

[RacerBill]

No. Added is added, substituted is substituted.
[/b]

I really am not being stupid or silly, by what if the manufacturer does not make that part anymore, and there is no dealer stock? I am seriously running into this problem with a lot of parts. I tried to replace some transmission linkage parts but 80-90% of them were not available, and the most expensive piece came in a Chrysler box but looked like it had been welded up by a monkey!

Thanks, Andy.

[lateapex911]

..... and the most expensive piece came in a Chrysler box but looked like it had been welded up by a monkey!

. [/b]

Looks probably aren't deceiving in this case!

It does seem like a goofy rule, if you can ADD one, why can't you just sub what you've got? I wonder what the unintended consequences are on that?

That said, your option is clear: fab up a couple mounts and a heim jointed stayrod. You'll probably have as good or better asolution than the factory, and it won't look like a monkey did it,......right??

[Andy Bettencourt]

I really am not being stupid or silly, by what if the manufacturer does not make that part anymore, and there is no dealer stock? I am seriously running into this problem with a lot of parts. I tried to replace some transmission linkage parts but 80-90% of them were not available, and the most expensive piece came in a Chrysler box but looked like it had been welded up by a monkey!

Thanks, Andy. [/b]

This is what I would do if it were my car - look for a new one. If they aren't available anymore, see if there is a superceeded part in the system. If not, you need to scour the earth for a used one. Maybe rebuid a stock one...if no go on that stuff, I would say SOL. One of the down sides to running a rare car.

Looks probably aren't deceiving in this case!

It does seem like a goofy rule, if you can ADD one, why can't you just sub what you've got? I wonder what the unintended consequences are on that?

[/b]

If you want to know, take a look through the ITCS and really pay attention to the add and substitute contexts. It would be the worst Pandoras box ever.

[RacerBill]

Thanks for all your comments. I am not SOL yet, but can see it comming. Hope it's a long tunnel!

[88YB1]

Replacement parts no longer have to be "stock from the factory" They may be sourced from the automotive after market suppliers such as NAPA. They must be substantially identical to the stock part though.

Chuck

[Matt Rowe]

I'm obviously familiar with the setup on Bill's car and there are a couple points.

One, the piece in question is not a rare piece, it actually was on every manual transmission omni/charger/horizon/rampage/turismo. But, that still doesn't mean that after 20+ years the rubber has rotted out and the stock on the shelves hasn't dried up. And while it would be easy to fab up a new replacement, it is not currently legal in the rules unless it is added somewhere else which greatly increases the difficulty of the install.

Two, why is it that you can add a stayrod, but you can't modify an existing mount that acts as a stayrod? That what the rule says but it certainly doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Third, it does seem sily that although you can upgrade suspension bushings (even when it was thought that meant higher durometer poly) that engine mounts are kept completely stock. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the allowance for alternate stock mounts as long as the configuration and amount of metal content remains as OEM.

Hmmm, it may be time to send in a request to the ITAC....

[ddewhurst]

Matt & Bill, if someone were to post a picture of the in question OEM engine stayrod I'll bet WE could brainstorm an added stayrod.

Have Fun
David

[Matt Rowe]

Dave,

I couldn't find a picture of the OEM piece, but here is the aftermarket one with stiffer poly bushings that isn't legal.



and it is attached (one bolted to the trans and one welded to the frame) via two pieces like



It is pretty much exactly what someone would do if they were adding one, with the exception that I would use rod ends instead of bushings.

[Greg Amy]

Hey, Matt. I suggest you fabricate a dogbone that attaches to the OUTSIDE of the mounting brackets.

Make one up with Heim joints and a threaded rod, and use longer bolts to attach it to the sides of the bracket, not inside the bracket. That way you're leaving the stock one there (even it's trashed) and the outside one takes all the forces.

I had the same problem with the OEM one on the Shelby CSX. Unfortunately, the P-bodies used a shock damper instead of a bushed link like the L-bodies. That thing was a POS and I ended up replacing at least once a year...

[Matt Rowe]

Greg,

Yeah, I know the known l-bodies of that era use the dampener which is just can't stand up to racing abuse, the neons use the same type of design. And in cases like the shadow and the neon the nature of the bracket make it more difficult to bypass like you have suggested.

Still, it seems ridiculous that if the car had never come with the piece I could make up a rod end and brackets and place it there, but because it came with a piece with rubber bushings I have to create a new part located elsewhere instead of making a minor change to existing piece. The net effect is the same and as others have pointed out the rules allow much greater modifications for more questionable reasons. And the stayrod still doesn't solve the translation issues that most bushings allow movement and failure in.

[Greg Amy]

Well, also keep in mind there's no requirement that OE parts on your car meet "new" specifications (otherwise 99% of the cars out there would be denied track access). So, if your OE dogbone happens to be in TERRIBLE shape, like with bushings that are moldy, melted from exhaust, etc, and the legal one you added on there with Heim joints right next to it is taking in all the loads, well...c'est la via, muchacho...

[Matt Rowe]

New or old, a rod ended piece would be taking all the load anyway, but it still seems ridiculous that if it wasn't there to start with I would have a simpler solution. But because it is there it has to be worked around.

[RacerBill]

Let's see if I got this right. I can't substitue a different stayrod, but I can add one, even if the car alrerady has one?

[RacerBill]

[attachmentid=771][attachmentid=772][attachmentid=773]BTW - Here is the real thing!