Motor/ Trans mounts

[Knestis]

"And they're off!"

Kirk (who invites anyone to come wiggle his engine whenver they want)

[Greg Amy]

So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater?[/b]

Yup.

...what are guys doing in the NE? Stock everything?[/b]

Dunno about "guys", but I'm certainly running stock mounts. That's the rule. Anyone doing anything else is cheating.

[Z3_GoCar]

"And they're off!"

Kirk (who invites anyone to come wiggle his engine whenver they want)
[/b]

But what's to stop my buddie from drilling an opening in his mount and replacing all the fluid with something a little firmer? Like maybe a good long cure epoxy. Then how would the legality of the mount be confirmed? It still has the stock part number, and except for a small rubber plug looks exactly like a stock one. Wasn't this the reason that the ecu was opened up, unenforceability?

James

[lateapex911]

So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)

The aluminum motor mounts for this car is supposed to be a top handling enhancement - do I become a double weezle if I use those?

Not looking to put myself into a world of pain by doing this stuff.

I guess the big question is what are guys doing in the NE? Stock everything? If so, then I will to. But if folks are running solid mounts, so will I.

Reaching out to the experienced ITA folks and rules folks for direction. I do not want to be pulling these out after buying and installing.

Thanks [/b]

I'm going to sound like your Mother, LOL.

You know the right answer, don't you?

Do you think Greg Amy runs illegal mounts? Or Andy? Or Jeff? Or Jeremy? (And natioanlly, Ruck? Mosers?)

On the flipside, how about the 24 car?

Does that help?

But what's to stop my buddie from drilling an opening in his mount and replacing all the fluid with something a little firmer? Like maybe a good long cure epoxy. Then how would the legality of the mount be confirmed? It still has the stock part number, and except for a small rubber plug looks exactly like a stock one. Wasn't this the reason that the ecu was opened up, unenforceability?

James
[/b]

Is that the way the part came from the factory?

No.

Not legal, and enforcibilty has ZERO to do with that.

If we're playing the "Odds of getting caught game", there is no hope. Time for a "claimer class".

Just because one guy can "cheat better" doesn't make it right, nor acceptable.

[RSTPerformance]

So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)

Reaching out to the experienced ITA folks and rules folks for direction. I do not want to be pulling these out after buying and installing.

Thanks
[/b]

Yup you would be cheating... I would suggest a first offence penalty of: Fix by next race, and probation for the rest of the year on that spacific item, car must be checked by tech at EVERY event before the race.

I am sure you will find that all the seriose people are running stock parts...

Raymond

[dickita15]

IMHO changing to anything but stock motor or transmission mounts it cheating. We run stock although they are not a big deal on our cars. We have broken one tranny mount and one motor mount in five years on our two cars. Both because unusual circumstances.

But I would have no objection if this is really a severe problem endorsing a rule change to allow the change.

[JLawton]

I run stock. One of my previous cars came with illegal mounts.....I swapped them out........BECAUSE THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!

[Greg Amy]

One of my previous cars came with illegal mounts...[/b]

I think this is a silly rule. One story I like to tell is when I was building the NX2000 I installed Energy Suspension poly engine mounts inserts in my car. Seemed so logical, given the philosophy and the plate of other mods allowed, that something like this was allowed (find another mod that is so common on street cars; hell, guys buy these things before they even accept delivery of their new/used car!)

I was at the ARRC in 2003 when we had to swap out the engine. As it was coming out Tim Rogers pointed out to me that the mounts were illegal. I laughed, then I was stunned when he didn't laugh, too. Went and read through the rulebook again and damned if he wasn't right...so, I give people the benefit of the doubt, at least initially.

It's a silly rule. You're allowing welded-in spherical bushings on suspension control arms, fabricated engine stay rods, and Motec engine management systems but not bolt-in poly engine mounts?

Silly rule. But, it's still the law.

[dj10]

So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)
[/b]

Only if your running in ITR.

[bldn10]

"It's a silly rule. You're allowing welded-in spherical bushings on suspension control arms, fabricated engine stay rods, and Motec engine management systems but not bolt-in poly engine mounts?"

Four wrongs don't make a right!

This illustrates the disastrous unintended consequences of BS rule interpretations that are adopted by Topeka - they then become examples of the types of mods that should logically be allowed.

Ben, had you said that the alum. mounts were simply more durable/safer, they would still be illegal but I don't know if anyone would much care. But they are a huge handling improvement?!? Shame on you!

[Greg Amy]

...they then become examples of the types of mods that should logically be allowed. [/b]

Not what I meant to imply, directly. I don't mean to say that since "this" is allowed then "that" should be allowed. What I mean is that by comparing the currently-allowed mods to the philosophy of the class, it seems like there are many other disallowed mods that should have been considered long before these... - GA

[benspeed]

Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts. The original interpretation then changed on this thread - which is fine.

This is one reason why this forum exists - to double check before you do anything. Certainly seems to have sparked some reaction though.

(And yes Jake - you rightfully did sound motherish but hey, just checking Ma!)

[Knestis]

Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts. ...[/b]

So where my engine bolts to the transaxle, and the transaxle mounts onto the subframe, then it's OK to replace all of the bushings involved in connections where the engine is NOT involved...?

Whee!! :026:

Kirk (who is liking the New Order more and more)

EDIT - or where the engine bolts to other parts, then THOSE parts are supported by bushings? EXCELLENT!

[lateapex911]

Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts.
(And yes Jake - you rightfully did sound motherish but hey, just checking Ma!)

[/b]

I'm thinking he's notably....wrong.

[benspeed]

Based on this discussion and the feedback - and my final review of the GCR last night - agreed!

[Doc Bro]

It's funny to read this thread. I posted it, a trusted friend replied, I gave him a smart reply (which I'm good for), and then....then....ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE!!! Wheeee!

Thanks Jeff -I had the STOCK parts orderd after my original reply. I hadn't revisited this thread till now. The more I read the interpretations some have of the IT rulebook the better I understand the U.S. Tax Code!!


R


Which blue Honda?

[lateapex911]

Not a CRX, but ask me in person if you want to order a couple, LOL. (ITA) I can get your order to him.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I agree that motor mounts are illegal. However, there is also very limited ways to enforce the rules. I know Hondas so here is my example.

Stock OEM Honda mounts, have no markings at all on them. They are black in color. Mugen makes a motor mount that at a 300% markup is significantly stronger and better. Can you tell they are stock? Well no, there are no markings on either piece. They both are black and look the exact same. The only way to tell they are not stock is to test the hardness of the rubber.

Am I cheating? No, I am too damn cheap to spend $405 on motor mounts. Plus its not moral, but this rule can be very hard to enforce.

Edit: While ECU's etc are being discussed is there room to clarify/change this rule? Does that even make sense to do?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jeremy, this rule is easily enforced. A simple durometer test between the two would surface the illegalities. Now KNOWING that someone has these is the difficult part.

If I was trying to take down a known illegal car, this would be one of the items I would name on my protest.

[PSherm]

I
Am I cheating? No, I am too damn cheap to spend $405 on motor mounts. [/b]

I'm with you! But a cheap, simple piece of aluminum rod makes a nice solid engine stayrod, which would suffice...