Update/Backdate between body types

[JoshS]

Quoting 9.1.3.C: "To maintain the stock basis of Improved Touring, updating and/or backdating of components is only permitted within cars of the same make, model, body type (e.g., sedan, station wagon, convertible, etc.), and engine size as listed on a single Improved Touring Specification Line."

Okay, so if this didn't say "as listed on a single Improved Touring Specification Line," then this would be very clear. It would mean that you simply cannot, ever, exchange parts from one body type into another.

But add that clause, and I get confused. What if a single spec line includes more than one body type (as most do?)

[Bill Miller]

Quoting 9.1.3.C: "To maintain the stock basis of Improved Touring, updating and/or backdating of components is only permitted within cars of the same make, model, body type (e.g., sedan, station wagon, convertible, etc.), and engine size as listed on a single Improved Touring Specification Line."

Okay, so if this didn't say "as listed on a single Improved Touring Specification Line," then this would be very clear. It would mean that you simply cannot, ever, exchange parts from one body type into another.

But add that clause, and I get confused. What if a single spec line includes more than one body type (as most do?)
[/b]

I don't know if I'd say that 'most' do. I know of a couple examples, but most (all?) differ in 2-dr vs. 4-dr versions. Regardless, if they're on the same spec line, you can update/backdate, given the other restrictions (complete assembly, etc.)

[JoshS]

Fair enough, let's say "many" instead of "most." I can find LOTS of examples of listed cars that came in 2-door or 4-door, but there's no distinction presented in the listings. Same for sedan/hatch, or coupe/convertible, etc.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So what, in practical application, would be confusing? Are you saying that you would TRY and use a sedan front door on a 2-door? If it would fit (which I doubt), you could. If not, why would you?

[tnord]

i bet the front 1/3 of many of these vehicles could transfer across body types.

[bldn10]

Well, let me throw a wrench in and let's see where it goes.

It could simply mean that parts off any cars on a single spec line are completely interchangeable. However, since this section of rule is only talking about backdating/updating - meaning putting parts from an earlier or later model car on yours - not about general substitution of parts. Read in that context, the reference to a single spec line could be simply to the model years on a single line, not body types, and the restriction to same body type would still be in effect. I.e. you can put a tranny from an '87 or '89 coupe in your '88 coupe but not in a sedan or convert. The rule goes on to say that you can't "create" a model car that never existed - so, e.g. if sedans never came w/ a 5-speed, you can't take a 5-speed out of a coupe (of any model year) and put it in a sedan even if the coupe and sedan are on the same line. But if sedans didn't have 5-speeds until a certain listed year, you can update your older car, that did not come w/ a 5-speed, w/ a tranny from a later sedan (but not a coupe). However, if the 5-speed that came in coupes and later sedans is exactly the same, I don't think anyone is going to quibble about where it came from. I have not even considered the ramifications of this interpretation - I'm just reading the rule.

[JoshS]

I'm thinking along the lines of what Bill said.

Here's a scenario. Not a real car in the example.

Let's say that a car listed was available for only 2 years, 1995 and 1996. Same engine specs, same transmission ratios, same brakes. The spec line doesn't say anything about body types, it just lists this model and the years, '95-'96. The '95 was available only in a 4-door. In '96, a 2-door was introduced, but all '96 cars of either body style had a lousy emissions-choking intake manifold that didsn't work nearly as well as the '95.

If you have a '96 2-door, can you use the intake manifold from a '95? 2-doors were never available with that intake manifold. I think it's clear that if you have a '96 4-door, you can use either manifold.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If you have a '96 2-door, can you use the intake manifold from a '95? 2-doors were never available with that intake manifold. I think it's clear that if you have a '96 4-door, you can use either manifold. [/b]

And you would be right IMHO. Happens all the time.

[PSherm]

Except I thought you can only update/backdate complete assemblies??? No "creating" a model?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Except I thought you can only update/backdate complete assemblies??? No "creating" a model? [/b]

And what complete assembly would you be referring to? The intake manifold 'assembly' is a very common upgrade to 86-88 RX-7's in ITS. You can't create a model (VIN requirement rule) but you sure as shootin can update backdate as allowed.

[JoshS]

Andy, I don't think you answered my question. Can someone use the '95 intake manifold on a '96 2-door? They are different body styles, but on the same spec line.

BTW, this came up because someone asked on the scca.com forums about whether or not a 2-door Jetta was legal in ITB. I was about to say, "Yes, but you can't use the good motor from a GLI, because the 2-door never came with that motor", but now I'm not so sure.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I thought I did. Yes it is legal IMHO.

Now the Jetta - it's on the spec line so I believe you can. Just like you can use the engine out of a 1991 RX-7 in your 1986. Never came with it but it is on the same spec line so the SCCA has deemed it 'updateable'.

No?

[JoshS]

I guess I agree, but I wonder why the words I quoted at the top of this thread mention body type (and really, all of those other things?) Why doesnt' it simply say, "update/backdate is allowed within models on the same spec line" or something better worded?

[Knestis]

Not going to strap on my NERD badge but this discussion did surface an inconsistency. The ITCS lists

Volkswagen Jetta/ GL / GLI (85-91) - 4 Cyl SOHC - 81.0 x 86.4 1780

Problem is, the '91 GLI had the 2.0 16v rather than the 1.8 SOHC engine. I don't think anyone ever intended that the big motor could run in B at 2280 - not that it wouldn't be kick-ass or anything...

I think the problem described here is a result of the additive nature of how the GCR/ITCS gets updated.

Different subject - I am VERY interested in the interpretation that a manifold is an "assembly," in light of the fact that the rule says...

Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing). (Emphasis added)

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Different subject - I am VERY interested in the interpretation that a manifold is an "assembly," in light of the fact that the rule says...

Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing). (Emphasis added)

K
[/b]

Well as it applies to the RX-7:

I say intake manifold but what I really mean is induction system - as is defined in the GCR. The whole thing on these cars can be transferred.

[Knestis]

...so manifold casting, TB, sensors, injectors, harness, etc. The whole shootin' match...? That's more in line with what I've always thought.

Thanks

K

[MMiskoe]

Anytime you update/backdate you create a model that didn't exist.

Take for example the 2nd gen RX7. Unless I am mistaken, the car was never built w/ the big brakes and maual steering rack.

GXL = big brakes & adjustable shocks + power windows, power steering & sunroof.

SE = little brakes + power windows, power steering & sunroof

Base = little brakes + manual windows & steering.

So when you swap the manual rack into a car w/ big brakes you just created a model that never existed.

Even if I am wrong about what Mazda did offer, lets asuume for argument's sake that I am right. Can you put the manual rack w/ the big brakes? Not w/o creating a model that didn't exist.

I agree that if there is a better component from one year to another, you could swap that, hence the '91 13B motor is the one to have. But at what point do you stop w/ the "component"? If they changed the wire harness to support the new motor, do you have to swap that too? I would expect you do.

Matt

[dickita15]

what exactly is the definition of "create a model that didn't exist."

[Bill Miller]

Not going to strap on my NERD badge but this discussion did surface an inconsistency. The ITCS lists

Volkswagen Jetta/ GL / GLI (85-91) - 4 Cyl SOHC - 81.0 x 86.4 1780

Problem is, the '91 GLI had the 2.0 16v rather than the 1.8 SOHC engine. I don't think anyone ever intended that the big motor could run in B at 2280 - not that it wouldn't be kick-ass or anything...

I think the problem described here is a result of the additive nature of how the GCR/ITCS gets updated.

Different subject - I am VERY interested in the interpretation that a manifold is an "assembly," in light of the fact that the rule says...

Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing). (Emphasis added)

K
[/b]

Different issue Kirk. You're talking about something that should be corrected through E&O, just like the 1.7 Rabbit / Scirocco w/ the close-ratio tranny. If you look at the spec line, I believe it says SOHC. But, what your anecdote does point out is that there are many entries in the ITCS (and other category specs) w/ incorrect information. See what happens when you don't wear your rules NERD hat for a while? :P

what exactly is the definition of "create a model that didn't exist."
[/b]

Dick,

I believe what that means, is that you can't use items that did not come on one version of the car(s) that are listed on the spec line. And no, that doesn't mean that since an '85 RX7 came w/ both a 12A and a 13B, that you can interchange them, those are explicitly on different spec lines (in different classes).

In actuality, you do 'create a model' when you build a configuration that didn't come from the factory. Like the A2 2-dr Jetta w/ the high-comp motor, close-ratio box, and rear disc brakes. But, the spec line lets you do that.

[Knestis]

...all of which makes the VIN requirement all the more silly.

K