So what's this junk about no new ITC/ITB cars??

[Joe Harlan]

Look guys, I'm not saying don't class these cars. I'm all for it as a matter of fact. I think pro-active classification of cars, instead of waiting one someone to ask for a classification, is one area where we as a group have not been active enough. Let's absolutely class these cars and I'm willing to help do it.

I'm just telling you guys that having spoken to a lot (probably 10-15, and 4 who actually went racing) of folks interested in racing, I don't hear a lot about "how can I get my Kia in?"

But I have always believed we should proactively class, so let's do it. Kirk, any help you need with finding numbers, etc., let me know.
[/b]

Its funny that the KIA keeps coming up. I have a friend that works or worked (been a while) for their motorsports program. When I did the Baja 500 they had a fairly large factory effort there. I think there would be some interest if there was interest is the SCCA brand. I honestly have never looked at a Kia in the shop to even see what the potential may be in them.
Soebody must think they are good?

[JeffYoung]

Kia, Hyundai, etc. I'm sure that those factories have backed racing in various forms at various times. But that is not the question. The question is will someone with the interest and the $$$ to go amateur road racing build one. I think a few might but most will not.

That said, I see absolutely no harm and only positives in classing these cars. So let's do it.

As far as potential goes, it looks to me like most of them are FWD, strut based approx 110-130 hp cars. Not much difference in them. Class'em, maybe they will come.

[cherokee]

Heck I am at the bottom of the food chain now perhaps if I could drive and........

It should not be looked at as a for or against you kind of deal. It should be looked at as what is best for the EXISTING cars in the given class. I am all for bringing in new blood don't get me wrong. But these cars are cars that VERY few people want to drive, I have no problem in classing them but it is not going to fix anything. With VERY few execptions ITB & ITC are dinosaur classes, cars that people would want to race do not fit here anymore, el-cheapo sporty econoboxes are just a tough fit. I asked in another thread for info on the new Beetle, 2760lbs to get it to fit (hopefully) into ITC, are there anyone running one. Or is the seasoned racer looking at it (remember we all advise newbee's to buy) that thing might be fun but it is porky.

So I will stand by what I have said, there are VERY few new ITC/B cars (that people would want to race). That is just the way it is, and if gas hits $3+ we might see 100hp sporty cars.

There is a new class in IT called ITR look at the cars in there
Supra
SHO Tarus
v-6 mustang
v-6 camero
RS-X
.......

There is something on that list for everyone, the import guy, the American car guy, the American FWD car guy. These are cars that have passion in even the most casual owner, now look at the list of B & C cars you provided. Do you realy think anyone would want to build one, is there any passion for the Kia Sephia?

Lets say the guy driving the IT 510 gets it bent and is looking at a new car. He has options, build another 510 (he thinks I love this car), looks at the list of new cars and says the Kia Sephia looks good on paper, but yuck, or for the same money I could build a Z3. You get the idea.
I will tell you what will happen he will build the 510 or the new car he has passion for, and the Sephia will sit on the spec line.

[Joe Harlan]

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/kiaracingclub/

200 members is it worth the chance you may get 1 per division..?

[lateapex911]

I think...and it's an opinion that probably is worth...well, lets not go there..LOL, .....that people race cars they think are "cool" and that they like. And they choose the car based on what they can rationalize.

Back in the ice age of IT< the 510 wasn&#39;t REALLY an econobox...it had IRS, a decent overacheiving engine, and was considered cool. The BMW 2002 was a competitor, as was the Mazda RX-2. Heck, C&D (I think) did a comparison tests of the "sport coupes" and those were the three cars chosen.

So I think we need to figure out whats cool.
Hondas...always. Heck the Fit might be a C car. And the Mazda 3 seems to be cool. But Kia? Hmmmm.

[Joe Harlan]

I think...and it&#39;s an opinion that probably is worth...well, lets not go there..LOL, .....that people race cars they think are "cool" and that they like. And they choose the car based on what they can rationalize.

Back in the ice age of IT< the 510 wasn&#39;t REALLY an econobox...it had IRS, a decent overacheiving engine, and was considered cool. The BMW 2002 was a competitor, as was the Mazda RX-2. Heck, C&D (I think) did a comparison tests of the "sport coupes" and those were the three cars chosen.

So I think we need to figure out whats cool.
Hondas...always. Heck the Fit might be a C car. And the Mazda 3 seems to be cool. But Kia? Hmmmm.
[/b]

From a guy driving a RX7.......hmmm. glass houses come to mind....

[gran racing]

Cherokee, I&#39;ve gotta disagree with what you said. No matter how often we all say buy someone else&#39;s car, there will be many, many people who build their cars. From the people I&#39;ve spoken with, the trend continues to be "I have an X type of car and want to begin racing it." We continiously see this on various forms, and people who instruct at PDEs / HPDEs also hear this quite often. I&#39;m in the process of building my second &#39;87 Prelude, and had no desire to buy someone elses car. You may find that&#39;s silly, but oh well. Why did I originally choose to build an &#39;87 Prelude? It was sitting out in my driveway, wasn&#39;t worth very much, and it seemed like the logical thing to do.

ITR? Sure, I&#39;d love to be racing in that class. Just about every day I drive my S2000 to work, I fantasize about making that my racecar. For many people, there are cars we&#39;d love to race and then there are cars we race, and learn to love to race. Is a Kia cool? Ha! Of course it isn&#39;t. Is a stock &#39;87 Prelude cool (also insert many cars we race)? No. That is until is has some neat SCCA decals, racing numbers, a louder exhaust, and other neat goodies. Now its cool!! (Funny how my not so cool Prelude gets the garage while the S2K sits outside in the cold. )

Often times when people look to get into racing, they look where their streetcar is already classed never giving much thought to attempting to class it themselves. If new cars are added to the class, maybe, just maybe those people who have them sitting out in their driveways will decide to transform it into what will then become a cool racecar. Getting more people into club racing will take several steps. While this may not alone produce significant results, this is one item to accomplishing this goal.

[Knestis]

... the Kia Sephia looks good on paper, but yuck, or for the same money I could build a Z3. You get the idea.[/b]

1997 Kia Sephia RS - $1,377

Dude - score ME a $1400 Z3!

And that one is from a dealer. Private party parity makes that an $800 car. How about spare parts? These are the yard cars of today, as bazillions have been sold and prices go down and down.

K

[Joe Harlan]

1997 Kia Sephia RS - $1,377

Dude - score ME a $1400 Z3!

And that one is from a dealer. Private party parity makes that an $800 car. How about spare parts? These are the yard cars of today, as bazillions have been sold and prices go down and down.

K
[/b]

At that price i&#39;ll take 3. Kia rental fleet.....Who would have ever thought of a renault appliance as a race car.... Parker Johnstone.....

[JeffYoung]

Again guys, I&#39;m all for classing that stuff.

But honestly, between paying $800 for that, spending $1500 on a cage, plus another $1k for wheels, seat, etc. at least and spending $3 to $4k on an IT7 car, or on an ITA CRX, I sure wouldn&#39;t be dialing up KiaSpeed for parts.

Let&#39;s class&#39;em though. As Joe says, even 1 per division, hell even ONE at all, makes it worth it.

[Joe Harlan]

Again guys, I&#39;m all for classing that stuff.

But honestly, between paying $800 for that, spending $1500 on a cage, plus another $1k for wheels, seat, etc. at least and spending $3 to $4k on an IT7 car, or on an ITA CRX, I sure wouldn&#39;t be dialing up KiaSpeed for parts.

Let&#39;s class&#39;em though. As Joe says, even 1 per division, hell even ONE at all, makes it worth it.
[/b]

Haha Jeff, as I said an ass for every seat.......Who in their right mind (kidding here) would ever consider a TR8 for ITS? I am betting the Kia has better brakes.....lol

[cherokee]

Oh I agree there are many people who want to build a car, I did the same thing. I started building the Opel for a year (Perhaps I should say welding it back together) then decided to go buy a MR2. But you must agree that for someone just starting out the overwelming advise has been to buy a proven car, one that will get you past school with no problems. I will also say that an 87&#39; Prelude has a lot going for it that a Daewoo does the biggest is that it is a Honda. The company is a little more active in motorsports then most mentioned in K&#39;s list. It does have a coolness factor to it, it is racy looking in its own way. I tried to talk my neighbor in to using his wifes old car for an IT doner, but at 6&#39;7" and almost 300 he is a pretty big ole boy, (and handy for picking up trannys) He is also jumping at the idea of V-6 Mustangs. A big man needs a big car.

You picked the S2000 something almost as pricey as doing a Porsche Boxster, but look at the other cars on that list some can be had pretty darn cheap. A 6cyl mustang that is under a grand around here.

And reguards to the $1400 Kia, after you replace the ball joints, rod ends, struts, wheel bearings, rotors, and everything else that has worn out on this car that has been built to a price point. These cars are in junkyards everywhere for a reason, they wear out, they are the automotive equilvent of a toster, it dies toss it in the trash and get another.

If you build a rental Kia and I build a rental CRX and both are available for the same price which one is going to get rented more? Both are going to cost about the same to build, one has a kind of coolness factor to it.

What I say is class any and every car that you think will fit, there might be someone out there that might want to race one. But if you are looking to cars of this type to bring new life into the class I think you are missing the target.

And while I think Jeff should ask for a parchute to help slow him down, I have never seen his car but I bet few IT cars sound like his. I would drive across the country just to hear it go down the straight.

[tnord]

What I say is class any and every car that you think will fit, there might be someone out there that might want to race one. But if you are looking to cars of this type to bring new life into the class I think you are missing the target.
[/b]

i don&#39;t know where you live in Kansas City, but you must be real close to Overland Park, because we&#39;re thinking exactly the same way.

i just can&#39;t understand why anyone would fight these cars being classed if you have any faith in the ITAC and their new process. i don&#39;t think anyone reasonably expects these cars to be the saving grace of ITB or ITC. but that&#39;s not the point, the point is to make it easier for people to join SCCA and start racing. who cares if they race a kia for only 6mos and then moves on to ITS, FP, or FC? the objective is to get them in and get them hooked, even if it&#39;s just a handful.

[Knestis]

Uh, hello Travis? Some of us who race crappy little ITB cars can actually read here...

I feel like the caveman (sorry, Neanderthal American) in the insurance commercials. "Oh, yeah - ITB is fine. As long as we can get new drivers out of those crapboxes and into real racing cars. Something in F Production, maybe."

You mean like a Turner or a Fiat X-1/9? Or a Alfetta GT?? The future of Club Racing.

But I think prevailing opinions here have given me my answer. Thanks.

K

[StephenB]

the other issue you have is that it is very difficult for the average member to get a car classified especially if it is an oddball. Not every car is classified unless the CRB or ITC decides it would be int he best interest of the members. I can request it but if it doesn&#39;t have any member interest (IE your the only person to request it) It will not be classified. This it the main reason I haven&#39;t spent the HRs to get the data needed as I am afraid I am the only one that will request it. I may be wrong with the several changes over the last year or so and If I am let me know so I can start requesting away I personally want to build a new car... probably a 1.8 focus for ITB but if I where to try and get a car classified I would probably try and classify at minmimum 5 different models then pick the best of the best that I like depending on the class.

Anyway correct me if it has changed but the Last I knew there had to be member interest to even have it looked at or you normally would get shot down.
Stephen

[gran racing]

Kirk, I think that was more of a dig on the Kia vs. ITB. Besides, who cares if they race an ITB car and then moves on to World Challenge and Grand Am Cup. Eric Curran comes to mind.

I can request it but if it doesn&#39;t have any member interest (IE your the only person to request it) It will not be classified.[/b]

My prelude classification quickly comes to mind. I requested that ~ 3 1/2 years ago and I&#39;m sure there was very little member interest. Send your request in!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Stephen,

You are wrong on one point. If somone requests a car to be classified, it gets classified. That one persons interest is all the CRB needs to make a move (provided it isn&#39;t too much for ITR).

And I agree with Dave&#39;s assesment on Trav&#39;s comments. It&#39;s not that ITB and ITC are &#39;uncool&#39;, it&#39;s that most everything new we are looking at seemingly has no core following - or ANY following in the US for that matter. Take away the tuner crowd who likes to jack up their street rides and what do you have?

Hell, two of my all-time favs are in ITB and ITC, the 2002 and the 510.

[tnord]

kirk -

those guys are exactly right, my post was a response to those who were saying the kia/protege/etc aren&#39;t real race cars that very many people would want to build. what i was doing was essentially laying out the scenario for the least possible amount of benefit ITB/ITC would receive from classing those cars, making the point that it&#39;s still good for the club for us to do so. i personally would think it&#39;s great if people built these cars and stayed in the class.

[Bob Burns]

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today&#39;s car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...

[tnord]

i don&#39;t think so, especially in the case with the rabbit and 510, those have had enthusiast following since the beginning, and lots of people that love them enough to want to race them.