So what's this junk about no new ITC/ITB cars??

[Knestis]

Let's look at 2000 model-year cars and see (curb wt., hp, torque)


Daewoo Lanos (2447, 105, 106)


Ford Escort (2478, 130, 127)


Daewoo Nubira (2800, 129, 136)


Civic DX (2359, 106, 103)


Hyundai Accent (2280, 92, 97)




Kia Sephia (2478, 125, 108)


Kia Spectra (2575, 125, 108)


Mazda Protege DX (2434, 105, 107
Mazda Protege ES (2537, 122, 120)


Mitsubishi Mirage (2183, 92, 93)


Nissan Sentra XE (2548, 126, 129)


Suzuki Esteem (2227, 95, 99)



Suzuki Swift (1895, 79, 75)


Toyota Corolla VE (2414, 125, 125)


Toyota Echo (2020, 108, 105)

So, is the problem that "nobody is building cars that fit" or "those don't fit my perception of what a race car should be?" I didnt' include the Mini here, since THAT does seem to fit preconceived notions - ignoring that its performance is right in line with some of these...

K

[Joe Harlan]

I have to say there are several in that list that could be fun. I really think ITB and ITC are suffering from good economy at the moment and unfortunate but true that won't last forever. Money is cheap right now so bigger power is in. I remember when things weren't that good and ITC had full fields.

To bad I have to wait so long for this. I could see these little crash boxes all over the place.

[ddewhurst]

Do I se a move here from grocery getters to family sedans ?

Happy Holidays

David

ps: With the inclusion of higher top end/hp/speed cars in IT & Production is there a silent message that no ones seeing/understanding ?

[JeffYoung]

Think about it. If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower?

I do think it is economics but perhaps a bit different than what we think. Is it expensive to run at the front of A and S? Yes. Is it AS cheap to buy a midpack S or A car (or even build honestly) as it is to buy or build a Bor C car? Yes.

I think this is what is killing B/C.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Excellent effort here Kirk. Let's scrub it down:

- Escort, Nubira, Sephia, Spectra, Protege ES, Sentra, and Corolla are all ITA cars IMHO. 125+ stock hp in a small FWD car gets you to around 2150 race weight. Or 2650+ in ITB...

After that, you have only two cars (the Honda and the Mazda DX - maybe the Sentra?) that has any type of following here in the US. What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following? Aftermarket support? Maybe with the booming Sport Compact market but...

Yes, these cars can be worked into A, B and C. Does it do ANYTHING to boost car counts or interest in SCCA or IT?

[zracre]

simply classing them and allowing the door to be open to these cars wouldn't hurt...It would be good to see more cars in the mix in the B/C ranks...even if 1 or 2 cars are built it is more than we had before and could lead to more being built.

[Joe Harlan]

Think about it. If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower?


[/b]

Think sbout it. the 510 was nothing but an econobox until somebody raced one. As an old car salesman once said to me "there is an ass for every seat" I would say that there are just as many people out there that care more about a good race than what their final top speed was. B and C just need a good mix of cars classified that could b competitive and there will be people to run them.

And David, Don't read anything into the family sedan......I just bought a 5 acre place and all I plan to raise is a little hell...

[JimLill]

Is part of this the fact the B & C cars tend to be entry level and a guy who is new to the game is pulled by the availability of existing cars or the knowledge and/or wherewithall to build a car.

If we really want to help the entry level people, more than car classing might be needed. A guide or cookbook would be a big help. If a someone starting up knew what car to start with and the path to get it into the hunt, he might go for it.

A year+ ago I knew little about what it might take to run mid-pack in any IT class. Thus, I ended up with a veteran 86 VW A2 ITB car which I refurbed. Do I regret that, not at all. But if I knew what it would have taken to take something more modern, one that suspension etc. was available for, I might have taken that path.

One area we can change on IT cars is the suspension. With a VW there's lots of suppliers of suspension bits. How about for the car proposed above?

So my thought is to help the entry level people a little more in that area so that they don't fear investing in a end of pack car.

[cherokee]

Think sbout it. the 510 was nothing but an econobox until somebody raced one. As an old car salesman once said to me "there is an ass for every seat" I would say that there are just as many people out there that care more about a good race than what their final top speed was. B and C just need a good mix of cars classified that could b competitive and there will be people to run them.

And David, Don't read anything into the family sedan......I just bought a 5 acre place and all I plan to raise is a little hell...
[/b]

Yep the 510 was an econobox till someone raced one but I seem to remember one that was pretty hot back in its day and driven by some well know folks. This is the attraction to the 510 and why we want to race one now. Hay Mr. X drove one back in the early 70's it was cool. Can't say that about the Daewoo Nubira.

There are only 2 reasons to build/buy a given car. That car has a good chance of winning, or that car is something special to ME, These reasons have been talked about for years here as well as other places.

New people are given advise all day long not to build their first race car. To buy a car that is already on the track, turn key if you will. So the market for these un-proven cars would be to existing racers for the most part. Now that said anyone want to build one of these.......and the most important question is Why would you not build one?

[Knestis]

Thoughts on the subject, in no particular order...

If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower? [/b]

Because even that 2nd gen RX7 is 20 years old, parts are becoming more scarce, and costs are going to climb as the years go by. Jeff loves his old V8-powered British sports car but other people might love other things. If the TR8 weren't in the books when you started racing, Jeff would you have gone that route? If poopy little imports aren't listed, are we going to miss a piece of the market we don't even understand?

Are we letting our deeply-held beliefs of "what race cars should look like" slant our thinking to the point that we are marginalizing some portion of the potential racer market? The critical theorist in me is suggesting that maybe that's what the organization collectively WANTS to do, since only "those people" drive modded Kias and Hyundais.

125+ stock hp in a small FWD car gets you to around 2150 race weight. Or 2650+ in ITB...[/b]

Could be but I based my first cut through Edmunds.com keeping in mind that the Golf III (mfg. spec curb weight about 2500#) has trouble getting to a 2350 race weight - let alone 2150. In reality, it will depend on the car I'm sure.

What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following?[/b]

That IS a very fair question but it's sure different from, "manufacturers aren't building B and C cars" - the first premise questioned here.

Just for giggles, I Googled "Kia" and "racing"...

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/impo...importskia.html - aftermarket performance parts catalog

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...02/209252.html - Kia Rio Wins Ice Racing Title Again (some hack named Yvan Muller)

http://www.raceinspired.com/s-217-kia-spectra.aspx - solid clutch discs

http://www.optionimports.com/kia.html - stainless header for a Rio (seriously)

http://www.arkspeedracing.com/SearchResult...=Y&Redirected=Y - strut bars

The short answer in this case might be "not so you'd notice" but there are Kias homologated by FIA for road racing and rallying, so there's almost certainly an offshore performance parts pipeline.

Yep the 510 was an econobox till someone raced one but I seem to remember one that was pretty hot back in its day and driven by some well know folks. This is the attraction to the 510 and why we want to race one now. ...[/b]

Why did anyone want to race them THEN? Because they could. The 510 is a great case. It was not a great race car out of the box (stupid rear suspension that defied all efforts to control camber) but it was cheap, rugged, and reasonably zippy.

This goes for pretty much any marque, but there was NO source for racing parts until there was someplace to race them, so that's kind of a red herring I think. The real question is, "Which comes first - interest or opportunity?" And which do rules makers have any control over?

K

[Jeremy Billiel]

After that, you have only two cars (the Honda and the Mazda DX - maybe the Sentra?) that has any type of following here in the US. What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following? Aftermarket support? Maybe with the booming Sport Compact market but...

[/b]

Andy - I tend to agree with you here, but if this logic prevailed than there would be no fast Saturns in ITA!

[JimLill]

So I picked this as a test case....



Googling the net I found:

- coil over kits
- Koni shocks
- exhaust header
- camber plates
- lightweight wheels

Obviously, the stock parts are available all over.

[Bill Miller]

My initial take on Kirk's list was pretty much what Andy confirmed, FWD cars w/ 125 stock hp end up in ITA. If you put them in ITB, you do essentially what I was talking about a while back, you raise the bar.

Another problem w/ most of those cars, is that they're pretty heavy to start with. Most are North of 2400#, might be hard to get them to ITA weight, and they'd be pigs at ITB weight (essentially what happened w/ the New Beetle when it was put in ITC).

Gotta admit though, the Civic DX and the Mazda Protege look like naturals for ITB, and the Mitsu Mirage and the Hundai Accent look like naturals for ITC. And they're 'sporty' enough looking, and in the case of the Honda and the Mazda, have some racing heritage, that people may actually want to race them.

[cherokee]

The short answer in this case might be "not so you'd notice" but there are Kias homologated by FIA for road racing and rallying, so there's almost certainly an offshore performance parts pipeline.
Why did anyone want to race them THEN? Because they could. The 510 is a great case. It was not a great race car out of the box (stupid rear suspension that defied all efforts to control camber) but it was cheap, rugged, and reasonably zippy.
[/b]

Nope not because they could,

Brand exposure. You know this as well as I, there was a VERY popular series that they where running in, with tons of car mfg's from all over the world, and they did pretty darn well. Do you think that sold some cars for Datsun? They where still very new to the US market, getting FACTORY backing in a NATIONAL racing series was good press. To attack the US car mfg's. in the 60's was a David and Goliath matchup, at least that is what everyone in the US was thinking...in Detroit. Toyota saw this and even gave it a try with the 2000GT. That car did not do very well but it put Toyota's name on peoples lips. Never discount the power of good PR, even Triumph in it's death throughs was spending $$$ to get their car seen, giving them to MASH stars and racing them.

So you see B&W pics of 510's with Alfa's, Driven by people who are the Who's Who in motorsports, this is why they are still popular, and will always be popular. Now tell me what a Suzuki Esteem brings to the table other then a warm body.

I would say that there are few new B or C cars that anyone wants to run, and people don't want to run them for a thousand different reasons. Put your cars on the list, and lets see if we see fields full of them when we do I will eat my words and buy you lunch.

[charrbq]

I still think there are a number of cars in ITB/ITC that are already listed in the ITCS that are good candidates, but it doesn't help to have more. One of the problems is the desire to build one. If I was to start over again, I'd have to take a hard look at ITA and try to find the bucks to build one. It's not just a matter of go fast parts, it's a matter of all the parts and the interest. Look at any juvy hot rod magazine and the ads for add on parts make up most of the print.

The flash is in the hot rod imports just as it was twenty years ago with GTI's, GLH's, CRX's, and such. Except now, the stock cars are Integras, Miatas, etc. Those cars come from the factory with enough stuff to faster than my car...and can do it with the A/C on.

The arguement of the 510 econobox being a great race car is a little hollow. No one stumbled into making one go fast until the factory put their effort behind them. Same for the Mini of old, and the even the early Hondas.

[shwah]

My initial take on Kirk's list was pretty much what Andy confirmed, FWD cars w/ 125 stock hp end up in ITA. If you put them in ITB, you do essentially what I was talking about a while back, you raise the bar.

Another problem w/ most of those cars, is that they're pretty heavy to start with. Most are North of 2400#, might be hard to get them to ITA weight, and they'd be pigs at ITB weight (essentially what happened w/ the New Beetle when it was put in ITC).

Gotta admit though, the Civic DX and the Mazda Protege look like naturals for ITB, and the Mitsu Mirage and the Hundai Accent look like naturals for ITC. And they're 'sporty' enough looking, and in the case of the Honda and the Mazda, have some racing heritage, that people may actually want to race them.
[/b]

Go put a stock 16v VW on the scales. My bet is it will be in the 2450 range. 123/134 hp for 1.8/2.0 respectively. I agree, lots of those cars look like A material.

Kirk's point is valid regardless. We should be classifying every car that we can identify as an appropriate candidate and find the necessary tech specs on (not the whole VTS sheet, but the items needed for ITAC to run their process).

Starting from 1990 on I expect we can still find a lot of options for every class (except maybe R since it was recently reviewed ad-nauseum).

[cherokee]

I could not agree more, if the car fits classify it, but leave the door open for adjustments. If you decide to classify a Daewoo Lanos and miss the mark by a mile leave room to fix it.

Say you class the car this year and it sits on the books for 10 years before someone chooses to build the first one. Now he asks the IT.com of 2016 and they say he is crazy that car was set with a crazy weight or whatever back in the day there is no chance it will come close to even hanging on to the end of the field, of 300hp ITC cars. The guy that wanted to race one goes away or races something else. Now what was the point of using the ink for that line, oh yea it looked good we have all these cars you could race. I know I am streching it a bit here but I think you understand the idea behind it.

Sound like something we have come across before?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - I tend to agree with you here, but if this logic prevailed than there would be no fast Saturns in ITA! [/b]

I don't know of any. :P

Seriously, there are what, 2 or 3 in the country? And it took a Saturn engineer to build 2 of them...that is the point!

Chris is right on with the 510, without BRE support, would it have ever caught on. Hell, it's one of my favorite cars.

The Best.

[Knestis]

...Brand exposure. You know this as well as I, there was a VERY popular series that they where running in, with tons of car mfg's from all over the world,... [/b]

Sounds a little like IT. My point is that the series had to exist first - then the racers came. Whether it's factories commiting to a "pro" series or club guys building new cars for IT, that is a given.
The more I think about the "healthy aftermarket" issue, the less of an issue it becomes. I did a quick mental inventory and the sum of the VW-specific aftermarket bits on the Golf is:

Struts
Clutch differential
Chip
Header
A arm spherical bushings
Rear strut top bushings
Front strut camber plates & bearings

Uhhh, that's it...

A motivated entrepreneur could gin up to build small lots of the last three in a well equipped home garage. The Walt Puckett-magician types can squeeze out a header for anything. There's a lot of crossover in parts like struts nowadays, too. Diffs can be welded. Call Lee Grimes about the struts, and...?

Remember, we have no obligation to make sure that every car listed is going to be easy or competitive - or easy to make competitive. Jeff L. bought the aforementioned Saturn KNOWING that if his trick ECU takes a dump, he's going to have a tough time replacing it. We make our choices and live with the costs and benefits.

...if the car fits classify it, but leave the door open for adjustments. If you decide to classify a Daewoo Lanos and miss the mark by a mile leave room to fix it. ...[/b]

Hey, way to support competition adjustments (bleah). I hope they work FOR you as often as they work against you. The assumption here might be a little unkind but do a quick selfcheck: Are you motivated to make this statement because you are afraid of something popping onto the grid that challenges your existing place in the competitive food chain? Are you willing to accept it when the tides turn and you are on the receiving end of a fix?

The system is in place so that shouldn't be an issue.

K

[JeffYoung]

Look guys, I'm not saying don't class these cars. I'm all for it as a matter of fact. I think pro-active classification of cars, instead of waiting one someone to ask for a classification, is one area where we as a group have not been active enough. Let's absolutely class these cars and I'm willing to help do it.

I'm just telling you guys that having spoken to a lot (probably 10-15, and 4 who actually went racing) of folks interested in racing, I don't hear a lot about "how can I get my Kia in?"

But I have always believed we should proactively class, so let's do it. Kirk, any help you need with finding numbers, etc., let me know.