So what's this junk about no new ITC/ITB cars??

[Joe Harlan]

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today's car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...
[/b]

There you go and here's a fact. If a Scion gets built and wins anything serious it will end up with a following...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today's car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...
[/b]

I would guess around 2425 in ITC...

[Joe Harlan]

oops

[Knestis]

I still a lot of us are guilty of not being able to look at the question of coolness through any but our own lens.

Perceptions of "sportiness" or "enthusiast following" are colored by looking back at pics of 2-liter TransAm cars. Unless the suggestion is that some "pro" series publicity is necessary (a la Rabbit Bilstein Cup or TA) to establish a bona fide road racing following..? And then club-level racing comes later? There's absolutely no question that the Rabbit and 510 were better than most of the other oil embargo grocery getters, but that's is PRECISELY what VW and Datsun designed them to be.

On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K

[cherokee]

I agree that they where better then most of the 70's econo cars, but it is a problem with the times. In the 70's everyone was loosing the LTD with the 460 and going to the Datsun with the 4cyl because there was NO GAS. I am not sure how old you are but I can remember the lines, I was only a kid at the time but I remember. There was no choice the gas was not there. So people wanted fuel sipping cars, people also wanted sporty and fun cars. So we got Pinto's and Pacers as well as some nifty little cars like Cosworth Vega's, Fiat,Datsun,Alfa..... This was a new thing before this a small car was a Falcon with a small V8 in it, for the most part. Now there was a sub 2.0L race class that these new cars where tossed in, and I would guess one reason for it was to show case that these little cars could be fun and you did not need 400+ cubic inches to have fun.

Fast forward to today. Gas is everywhere (at the moment) there is no incentive for you to have a fuel sipping car. (outside of goverment pay outs).

To take the new Beetle for an example, a car that I would call a cool car. Look how heavy it had to be made to fit, although it does in my eyes bring IT back to its roots, put a cage in and go.

I don't want to use the word problem so let me say, the issue with B & C is more then just HP. It is technology. A modern 1.9l is going to put out way more ponys then my 1.9l. If someone made a new 850 Fiat spider I bet it would be too fast for ITC. Just because of the power output. Look at the HP they are getting out of small motorcycle engines, they are over that of most of the ITC and ITB cars with IT mods done to them.

If I understand the above post correctly reguarding the xA, it is 2340 at the curb and to make it fit it would have to come in at 2425? Over the curb weight. I would think that most racers would give it a pass on this issue alone.

I think that this is a VERY hard issue to deal with and unless the new car market changes direction the C & B will slowly fade away. (remember I have a B car). What to do to fix it, I don't know.

Perhaps the initial question should be So what's this junk about no (good) new ITC/ITB cars??

[lateapex911]

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today's car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...
[/b]

I'm not Andy, and I don't know a lot about the Scion, but....some quick math and ....maybe 2240 or so in B?

[gran racing]

Is the motivation of people buying these lower hp cars that were listed due to fuel economy or due to the cost of the car? What is the target age group for IT prospective racers? This changes what is thought as a cool car, and why they might own a lower HP car. For example, if you're talking Males in the mid 20s/early thirties, many in this range bought inexpensive cars during college and are starting to have more expendible income. I would also be very surprised if the people in this target market bought these cars based on if they are good on gas or not.

[Bill Miller]

I'm not Andy, and I don't know a lot about the Scion, but....some quick math and ....maybe 2240 or so in B?
[/b]

That's where I would have gone w/ it Jake. It's about the same as an A2 Golf, in terms of power,

[shwah]

That's where I would have gone w/ it Jake. It's about the same as an A2 Golf, in terms of power,
[/b]

That was my off the cuff reaction as well.

[Bill Miller]

I would guess around 2425 in ITC...
[/b]

[lateapex911]

That seems like you'd have to add weight to make it fit C. And it's 1500cc, and will put out more than C horsepower. Granted, it's shaped ...well, it IS a brick, LOL. But at first glance it looks more B than C to me.

[Knestis]

... On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K
[/b]

??

K

[JimLill]

Not on the list of potentials is YBA FWD... 99-02 Mercury Cougar



a heavy I4

[Bill Miller]

On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K
[/b]

You'd have to change the cage and buy new wheels?

[Bob Burns]

Granted, it's shaped ...well, it IS a brick, LOL. But at first glance it looks more B than C to me.[/b]

Not exactly.

The xB is a brick. The xA is swoopier. Both use the same mechanicals.

Bob...

[tderonne]

And just for the record, the escort ZX2 as seen way above is classed as an SSC car, and as an ITA car.

[green golf]

I say class these cars. Sometimes people want to race so bad they will run whatever they can get their hands on, I.E. Pinto or a Plymouth fire Arrow ( wtf !?! ) If any of you have ever driven a stock Golf GL or a Rabbit L you would think theres no way this would make a good car. Take a Golf and add a set of Hoosiers and a set of Ground Controls , grow a set of huevos and you can do fairly well in your division or at the ARRC. Its just a question of how bad you want to make a Kia Sephia or a Daewoo Lanos work.

On the other hand, its the Scions , the Focus, and the ever present Civic thats going to attract the younger people and keep the numbers up. I'm 29 and im gonna run my A2 as long as i can. Who knows, 10 or 12 years from now i could be running an 07 2.5 Rabbit. A few of us know how bad the original ones sucked

[Aged racer]

Ya'll haven't mentioned yet that there's a bunch of late '90's and early 00's current SS cars that will need a home in IT. These cars already have the cages and have little street value- IT conversion is about the only choice (ex. the 1st gen Neons in ITA). We need a place to go with our cars when they are no longer competitive, and most of us want more than regional SS to play in. I own half of an SSC 2000 Protege ES, not even remotely competitive nationally. Perfect IT car- I'm sure it will be ITA, which is unfortunate as it has the aero of a barn door and weighs too much. I'd do ITB with a weight penalty in a heartbeat.

Let's not discourage classifying these cars- it will be good for IT.

Steve

[Bill Miller]

Not exactly.

The xB is a brick. The xA is swoopier. Both use the same mechanicals.

Bob...
[/b]

Yeah Bob, but doesn't the xB qualify as a wagon, and therefore not legal?

[Bob Burns]

Interesting. GCR 9.1.3.E. prohibits classifying station wagons in IT, but I can't find a definition of station wagon in the GCR. The EPA classifies the Scion xA as a "Subcompact Car" and the xB as a "Small Station Wagon". In my original question, I asked about the xA, not the xB. The question is moot for a while, anyway, because the oldest Scions are 2004 models and not eligible for classification for a few years.

Bob...