ITAC News.

[JeffYoung]

All troof.

I was there to witness Eric's feat and know Paul very well. No stunt. I want to say he started running under the track record within 3-4 laps of hopping in the car. That's why he gets paid to race while us shmucks sit on the internet complaining about how slow our cars are. That wasn't a shot at anyone. Just a general comment.


But Paul and Nat's Volvos are some of the fastest ITB cars in the country. Top builds, top prep with great drivers.

Back when I ran at the back to middle of the pack I used to complain all the time that my car was not competitive, the other guys cheat, they have more money, blah, blah, blah. I was then lucky enough to spend a lot of time at the track with the fastest guys/cars in the country. it was eye opening........... No stone goes unturned. Hours prepping, hours on set-up, hours and hours and hours on driver developement.................... Anyone out there that thinks they are driving their car to it's maximum potential needs to "get real". There are better drivers out there that will hop into your car and demolish your times.............. Recognizing that fact will be the biggest factor in making any driver faster.

6 years ago I was lucky enough to buy inarguably a 10/10ths ITA car. It was supposed to be one of the fastest in the country. I got in it expecting to win my first race out and every time after that........ HA!! I was dreaming. I then spent the next 6 years developing me as a driver AND spending 6 years developing a 10/10ths car!!! We changed shocks, we changed sprints, alignment, sway bars. You name it, we fiddled with it. I found the harder I worked, the luckier I got..................


Hmmmmmmm. Sorry about the rant.............. I'm done now..........



.

[Flyinglizard]

If you want a cheaper class, require DOT 200 tires. On stock or 7 in. wide wheels. The run what ya brung, can work well with a proper rule set.
The ITJ class has a beginning. If the rules require stock brakes and DOT 200 tires, the cars can run very well together. The small cars turn better, the big cars go better.
Relaxing the cage rules to allow any tabs inside the cabin is a good idea, along with stock car style cage kits.( most are ERW but well bent) Well over the requirements for SCCA.
The cage tabs and tubes are safety only ,on the low grip tires.

If you want more racers, run more 6hr night enduros. Night races draw very well and 6 hrs promotes 3 drivers.
Have the race group done all in one day. 30 min practice /qualify, 6 hr race. Go home. Reduce the down time, reduce the overnight stays, etc.

The SCCA sprint races are about 500$ per hr, require all weekend to do the 2 hrs on track, and some expensive peripherals to support the package.

Maybe SCCA could Issue Novice permits to drivers with 3 or more, Lemons or Chump races.
Reduce the hassle, reduce the cost per hr. Increase the tracktime per weekend/per $.
MM

[ShelbyRacer]

Rules creep strikes again, eh? I was referring to REAL SS.

Keep IT where it is!!!!!! I just want one little change............... just kidding!!!!

Actually Bill, it's not the packages that were the issue. It's the fact that the factory teams (or those with insane funding) could afford to:

Take 500 connecting rods and find the four lightest and best matched
(Ditto for almost any part- especially those that move!)
Bodies in white
Bodies in white with, um, factory reinforcement
New tires every session
Unlimited ability to program the stock ECU

There ain't nuthin "showroom" about a Showroom Stock car. They were BIG money back in the day. Ask the guy who *still* can't race with SCCA because he has an outstanding fine of $10,000 (yes, that's right- TEN THOUSAND) from the heyday of Showroom Stock racing.

Matt Rowe and I had to opportunity to spend significant time with some of the old SSA Shelby Charger racers and preparers. They probably spent more time and money on one engine than most of us (though certainly not ALL of us) spend on a whole car...

[JoshS]

I think these are really cool ITB cars. Top 3 IMHO.

That looks way lower than 5" at the rockers?

[Andy Bettencourt]

That looks way lower than 5" at the rockers?

That is under compression on the outside of T6 at NHMS while accelerating uphill.

[RacerBill]

Actually Bill, it's not the packages that were the issue. It's the fact that the factory teams (or those with insane funding) could afford to:

Take 500 connecting rods and find the four lightest and best matched
(Ditto for almost any part- especially those that move!)
Bodies in white
Bodies in white with, um, factory reinforcement
New tires every session
Unlimited ability to program the stock ECU

There ain't nuthin "showroom" about a Showroom Stock car. They were BIG money back in the day. Ask the guy who *still* can't race with SCCA because he has an outstanding fine of $10,000 (yes, that's right- TEN THOUSAND) from the heyday of Showroom Stock racing.

Matt Rowe and I had to opportunity to spend significant time with some of the old SSA Shelby Charger racers and preparers. They probably spent more time and money on one engine than most of us (though certainly not ALL of us) spend on a whole car...

Like was said somewhere, sometime - there ain't no limit on what someone will spend to be at the pointy end of the field.

[lateapex911]

I was there to witness Eric's feat and know Paul very well. No stunt. I want to say he started running under the track record within 3-4 laps of hopping in the car. That's why he gets paid to race while us shmucks sit on the internet complaining about how slow our cars are. That wasn't a shot at anyone. Just a general comment.


But Paul and Nat's Volvos are some of the fastest ITB cars in the country. Top builds, top prep with great drivers.


.

yea, that's why I have a hard time accepting the cries I've heard from the MARRS Volvo guys in particular. I've been to Summit with a pretty fair ITB driver in Dave Gran. Our first weekend there we both set lap records. His got broken shortly thereafter by a tenth....and I've watched Dave struggle with Nat locally. As in: "lose to Nat". And Daves run at the very pointy end of the ARRC races too, less developed than he is now.
I've looked at Nats car pretty closely, it's certainly not flashy, but it's well prepped. And I HIGHLY doubt it's anything but legal. He might push the grey, but all of us do (or should).

So, I have to think, if Nat were to go to Summit, how would he do, once he learned the track and got his car set up for the track?
I'm pretty sure he'd run very well. Certainly well enough that I couldn't see warranting an investigation into the "Volvos need help" line of thinking.

yes, (Kirk!) I know this is the danger of inference logic, but, it's what I've got! I'll be happy to listen to other inferences of logic that attempt to disprove mine.

[lateapex911]

Take 500 connecting rods and find the four lightest and best matched
(Ditto for almost any part- especially those that move!)
Bodies in white
Bodies in white with, um, factory reinforcement
New tires every session
Unlimited ability to program the stock ECU

Don't forget flowing dozens and dozens of cyl heads to find the best flowing one, same with anything air passes through. And the damper packages that somehow made up for the soft springs...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Isn't the point to look at the Volvo's on paper, set the weight an go? Are we saying the weight is solid per process? On-track observations from one area is bad.

Fact is they were set using 'common' numbers that were later found out to be flawed (illegal). If they are fixed, it's moot.

[StephenB]

I know Nat, Paul, and Eric and I think they all do great in those volvos. I know they both are running motec and spend a ton of time building good engines. However when talking to Nat he talks alot about balance. Some weekends he gets it right and flies, and other weekends he tries something and ends up top 3. Placing your balast in different locations (within the rules), changing your seating position, or even moving things like your fuel cell (up to 24 inches side to side!) make a big difference if your running multiple tracks

Stephen

(I know we have done things like this, not confirmed if Nat and Paul are)

[Flyinglizard]

I built 2 Volvos for customers. The "Blueprint cam" specked well over the just taken out,perfect original cam . The lift was close, the duration was very much improved.(visable )
The stock valve springs would coil bind and require replacing every third session. The "replacement" springs would last 6 races or more. Why is that?
We ran the stock, good fresh engine, in one car for a base line @ Watkins Glen. 2:38 @ about 50# over weight. The new cam, springs, brought this to 2:32, or there abouts. That works out to near 12 hp. I estimated the front BHP cars were @ about 145 real HP.
11.5/1 compression. Turning 7300 RPM?? The same BHP cars went about 2:26-2:27. Well driven no doubt. Phil..
MY VWs went 2:28.. (With open diffs, take another 1.5 off for locked)
The 142 handles really well and are by far the best stopping car in the class.
Does it belong in ITC? No.
Do the cams need looked @? Yes, but who has any real specs.?
IMHO, MM

[JeffYoung]

Oh good gracious. Here we go again on the Volvos....

No offense Lizard, appreciate the information. But sorting out these cars, the power they make and the legality of the various examples we see has been a big problem for the ITAC. BIG.

[TStiles]

This discussion makes me very thankful that I chose the miata

[JeffYoung]

I'll tell you what. I bet 80% of our time on the ITAC the last 2-3 years has been spent on ITB in general, and on a few cars (including the Volvo, the Audi, and the MR2) in it specifically.

And no, that is not because the power to weight ratio in ITB is "off."

[CRallo]

Lions and tigers and bears...

[pfcs]

Naaaah-all Volvo drivers are to be presumed cheaters and bottom feeding vermin incapable of any of the kind of integrity, skill, or the intelligence that a real winner requires. They are constitutionally incapable of ever doing the right thing and are never to be believed.

(ps: only the 71 142E <70/71 1800E also>had the great cam with 5deg addtl duration on both lobes. It may have had .010"? more lift as well. Of course the used cam was perfect-they never had a wear problem! I degreed the best original cam I found @ever 5deg and archived the info as well as in graphing it. I did this with BHP cam and aftermarket D (I think that was it-been 20yrs) or whatever was the B20E cam. All that went to Brumstead and co when everything was sold to people in Ithica. Point is, they were VERY close to one another as in legal.
I've run BHP springs, IPD B20 stock, and factory B20 springs. None were near coil bound when installed ht was legal and all needed regular replacement depending on how much you stretched the shift point. And I would be amazed to the improvement at WGI that you experienced)

PPS: I really doubt that any mentioned /volvo drivers are cheaters. Also, except for a notable overperformer @WGI, I can't think of any notable Volvo guys that are more than gray.

[callard]

Smokey Yunick grey?

[lateapex911]

Naaaah-all Volvo drivers are to be presumed cheaters and bottom feeding vermin incapable of any of the kind of integrity, skill, or the intelligence that a real winner requires. They are constitutionally incapable of ever doing the right thing and are never to be believed.

(ps: only the 71 142E <70/71 1800E also>had the great cam with 5deg addtl duration on both lobes. It may have had .010"? more lift as well. Of course the used cam was perfect-they never had a wear problem! I degreed the best original cam I found @ever 5deg and archived the info as well as in graphing it. I did this with BHP cam and aftermarket D (I think that was it-been 20yrs) or whatever was the B20E cam. All that went to Brumstead and co when everything was sold to people in Ithica. Point is, they were VERY close to one another as in legal.
I've run BHP springs, IPD B20 stock, and factory B20 springs. None were near coil bound when installed ht was legal and all needed regular replacement depending on how much you stretched the shift point. And I would be amazed to the improvement at WGI that you experienced)

PPS: I really doubt that any mentioned /volvo drivers are cheaters. Also, except for a notable overperformer @WGI, I can't think of any notable Volvo guys that are more than gray.

Phil, I think you are being sarcastic in your first line.
I don't think I've ever said or implied that.
I certainly have a lot of respect for the way the Volvo guys I know conduct themselves. To name names, thats Nat Wentworth and Paul Curren. I'm confident that IF there were items on tehir car that somebody would take issues with,those guys feel that they are parsing the rule correctly, and that tehy are legal. I am sure neither is doing anything they feel isn't legal.

But I read the stuff by Lizard, and I see numbers like 145, and I wonder if that is legal, then why aren't Volvos running away in ITB? I have seen sheets and know some real numbers on top three ARRC cars, and there isn't enough weight in the world that would keep a Volvo behind at the end of a straight with that kind of power. Stuffs just not adding up. That's ITA power.

[JS154]

** The people who stick with the game will tell you (I think) that they like rules continuity, deep competition, fair application of the regs, and hanging out with fun, like-minded people. These people define what should be the core membership, so listen to what they have to say and continue to give them what they like.

** History has demonstrated that at any given point in time, more than half of the club racers on the track are destined to leave after just a couple of seasons, regardless of what the club does. It's something of an over-generalization but they tent to NOT be like the core group above - they don't assimilate, they want to win (so often pick poorly subscribe classes), and their hobby ADD will have them looking at boats before their engine needs a rebuild. We can't retain this population so shouldn't try too hard, and above all we must not let them - and their particular "I think it should be like this" personal desires - drive the rules.

The above is, IMHO, right on.

** It's not a universal problem - some regions get it right - but any that is having trouble retaining drivers who do commit to doing a school had better look hard at the culture of their organization. One key person (e.g., registrar, tech inspector, steward, whoever) can be enough of an frustration to chase people away. I've met DOZENS over the years who honestly believe that their job is to screen the unworthy... These folks tend to be the "old guard," who don't understand that young people expect a customer-service orientation, a more egalitarian culture, and less officious assholenness. Every region that has these individuals knows who they are, and someone needs to get them straightened out.


K

I could not agree more with this. I have seen people and situations like this hurt participation in other clubs and sports as well.

Unfortunately, positions of authority tend to be attractive to people with big (and often fragile) egos and people with control issues. Racing certainly is expensive all-in considered, and those with the disposable income to participate tend to be more driven, more a-type personalities compared to those say for example the local bar softball or dart club.

Added in together and yeah, no matter how well-intentioned they may be, one person who is a real jerk or is just constantly abrasive and condescending, can really be a drag on participation on all levels - competitor, entrant, vounteer, management etc.

[JS154]

OK, If any of you are going to the convention find me and let's have a sit down so you educate me.

I will be at the convention and I would be happy to meet you. Being new to the SCCA I'm brain-deep in sponge-mode learning about the club and the classes and the people etc.

Eric Heinrich
GULF E30M3 Touring Car
STU#10