IT Festival at MO

[R2 Racing]

The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"
[/b]

I hear what you're saying, but that's what the ARRC is for. Plus it's at the end of the season, so people are more willing to do a tear down if they have all winter to put it back together.

Jake kind of ran with my idea. Consider checking legality on things like ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, heater cores, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, cage design, etc. All of those things require no major teardown, no special tools, and could be given a "yes" or "no" pretty quickly.

Again, just an idea. You're allowed to hate it if you want. But in my opinion, if the word gets out that we're checking for legality of cars, the cheaters will stay away, no matter what we're checking. It's kind of been my opinion that if some guy cleans house in his region/division but never goes to the ARRC, ever, well there's your answer. I think you'll see the same thing here.

[dj10]

Displacement on a rotary? [/b]

Displacement checks on piston engines. This would keep some cheats away!
While you guys are pissing around looking at the obvious there are guys running 2.0l engine with cams when there only allowed 1.8L. I've seen this happen before. If you aren't going to add some validity to this race don't waste everyone's time by promoting this as some big event. I personally don't want to be torn down but I'll be happy to be if I finish well and they do tear me down, just to be prove I'm legal. I'm not saying tear everyone down but if people don't know what you will be doing, this should be enought to keep the cheats away. To advertise you are not going to do tears downs is like an open invitation to cheats.

[greendot]

Displacement on a rotary? Easy...measure the rotor housing. Done from the outside. Porting? Write it up. Post the bond, and require that Topeka procure a stock example for comparision.They can procure one before the event, but it MUST be done by a third party, and as you wouldn't be informing the protestee of the protest, the third party must be the officials. To my knowledge, adn I am assuming that you are talking about ITS rotaries, there is no template available to an SCCA scrutineer to make the judgement on the 13B ports.

(Atlanta region has a go/no go guage they use on the 12A exhaust ports, but again, nothing exists to my knowledge for the 12A intakes)
[/b]

I think the displacement reference was for piston engines, but my main question brings out my own ignorance.
I thought that at the ARRC race they use a popsicle or lollipop or something to verify rotary ports. A go-nogo gauge. I've never seen one or seen them do it, but I hear about it frequently. Maybe that's the 12a exhaust gauge you're talking about, but I was under the impression that intake ports were also checked somehow.

Robby Huffmaster, you reading this to enlighten us?

Also unfortunately I didn't realize until I read it here that the impound area was friendly this year. Previously, my last time there about 2001, you were chased away if not directly involved with a car there. Had I known that the attitude had changed I'd have been more observant of how they checked the rotary cars.

[gran racing]

I think doing what ya'll are talking about (not too invasive) makes sense, BUT don't necessarily advertise that as Jake's recommended. To make it fun, have the people who are being inspected pick out of a hat the items the inspectors will verify.

[RSTPerformance]

Jake kind of ran with my idea. Consider checking legality on things like ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, heater cores, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, cage design, etc. All of those things require no major teardown, no special tools, and could be given a "yes" or "no" pretty quickly.
[/b]

Driver mode on: If you don't check engines and check the rest of the car instead then please ask in advance that tech and the Stewards work together to ensure that we/you do not DQ people who have illigalities that DID NOT give them a competitive advantage. Those that do NOT have a performance gaining advantage, just write them up, put them on probation and have the log book and car checked at each race after (3 or so races) to be sure that it has been brought into compliance. Basically don't DQ someone who travles 5 or 10 hrs to compete just because thier washer bottle isn't in compliance. If you do DQ a bunch of people for things such as washer bottles then IMO you will give the race a bad name for those just looking to have fun at a well attended and respected race.

Again I only say this because I feal that if you skip out on checking things that would lead to success (cams, over boaring, compresion ratio, etc) then we should be a little more gentle on the things that didn't even put them on the podium.

Now this does not mean all your suggestions shouldn't get a DQ... I do think that ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, and so on are performance gainers and deserve a DQ. But things like heater cores, washer bottles, cage designs, missing door panels, etc. may or may not give a significant performance advantage. Those things should be looked at closely to determine the appropriate "disciplinary action."

Your asking for feedback... thats what ya got!!!

Raymond

[StephenB]

I think doing what ya'll are talking about (not too invasive) makes sense, BUT don't necessarily advertise that as Jake's recommended. To make it fun, have the people who are being inspected pick out of a hat the items the inspectors will verify.
[/b]

I like picking out of a hat!!

Please don't make the mistake on saying what will be looked at before the even. If we say we are not going to check engines.....

I think if we do a complete teardown on one car in all IT classes that would be fine. If we run all races Sunday AM with the knowledge that one car will get torn down ARRC style then the cheaters will stay away except those that gamble. Then AFTER the races are finished take the top 3 numbers of all winners in one hat and the item that will be teched in another hat. (have something different on each car... 1 being an engine check, another suspension, ect) Then you pick a number and pick a tech item from each hat! This will keep it fair and deffinetly save on time, and add some excitement for everyone in impound as the antisipation builds!!

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Driver mode on: If you don't check engines and check the rest of the car instead then please ask in advance that tech and the Stewards work together to ensure that we/you do not DQ people who have illigalities that DID NOT give them a competitive advantage. Those that do NOT have a performance gaining advantage, just write them up, put them on probation and have the log book and car checked at each race after (3 or so races) to be sure that it has been brought into compliance. Basically don't DQ someone who travles 5 or 10 hrs to compete just because thier washer bottle isn't in compliance. If you do DQ a bunch of people for things such as washer bottles then IMO you will give the race a bad name for those just looking to have fun at a well attended and respected race.

Again I only say this because I feal that if you skip out on checking things that would lead to success (cams, over boaring, compresion ratio, etc) then we should be a little more gentle on the things that didn't even put them on the podium.

Now this does not mean all your suggestions shouldn't get a DQ... I do think that ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, and so on are performance gainers and deserve a DQ. But things like heater cores, washer bottles, cage designs, missing door panels, etc. may or may not give a significant performance advantage. Those things should be looked at closely to determine the appropriate "disciplinary action."

Your asking for feedback... thats what ya got!!!

Raymond [/b]

I have the perfect solution for that. BRING A LEGAL CAR.

Podium guys should get displacement/compression/cam checks. Techs should be schooled on 12A/13B's and all rotories should have to pull exhaust. Random checks should include the 'little' stuff like suspension items, Air intake source, ride height, air dams.

If this is to be a pro-caliber event, small stuff is a no-go as well.

[dj10]

If this is to be a pro-caliber event[/b]

"If this is to be a pro-caliber event"

Enought Said

[TAC]

Hi guys,


We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event. Our tech people have been reading the suggestions and have already plucked out some very good information. Remember being the inaugural event means a few growing pains. I can't say what will be put into the final proposal in for the January board meeting but the Pro Starts on the back straight and the Pro straight instead of the Chicane are being discussed. The idea is to build this into a warm-up event for the ARRC similar to the June Sprints are to the Run-offs. But to do this we must start with a good base and work our way up.



Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair

[Andy Bettencourt]

For the record, all that has been done already is well beyond expectations. If we stick with it, this event will grow and grow. Thanks.

[dj10]

Hi guys,


We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event. Our tech people have been reading the suggestions and have already plucked out some very good information. Remember being the inaugural event means a few growing pains. I can't say what will be put into the final proposal in for the January board meeting but the Pro Starts on the back straight and the Pro straight instead of the Chicane are being discussed. The idea is to build this into a warm-up event for the ARRC similar to the June Sprints are to the Run-offs. But to do this we must start with a good base and work our way up.



Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair [/b]

Todd, you guys and gals have a lot of hard work ahead of you. I'm sure I can say for us racers "Thanks". Your should reap what you shall sow

Just don't let the cat out of the bag what you are going to do in impound.

[RSTPerformance]

Hi guys,
We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event.
[/b]

If this is a "pro caliber" event, then I am sure that thier will be full blown tech inspections as are done at the ARRC. If that is done, then I would expect the same level of profesionalism by competitors as that at the ARRC. In other words you had better have your washer bottles

Raymond "As Andy said, BRING A LEGAL CAR, this isn't your normal regional" Blethen

PS: thanks for all the hard work!!!

[lateapex911]

Years ago, in one of my first years racing, there was a drivers meeting t discuss an upcoming NASCAR Busch North support race at Lime Rock. THe Grand poobah at the time said, that this wouldn't be run like a normal race...his word was final, and whatever he said went. Period.

Then he went on to say, "no protesting, no worrying about little things and just bring your cars, make 'em clean, and just don't put V8s in them, OK?" There were some murmered chuckles in the crowd after that statement.

I heard THAT, and a sinking feeling hit my stomach. Hers's this guy, basically saying "Cheatit up boys, just don't be BIG idiots about it..."

I hated that. Heck, just driving my car TO the track AND racing AND driving home was as much as I could handle! Tearing the motor down?? And making it "REALLY" fast? I wouldn't know where to start! LOL

I like the sounds of THIS event a LOT more.

My suggestion to tech is be fair. But be strict. Tell people to bring legal cars, and hold them to it. Use the random element of surprse. Don't worry if you can't check every car for everything....but if there's something thats not right about a car..any car, including mine, write it up.

[dj10]

In other words you had better have your washer bottles



Don't get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I've ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH!!! I'M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!!

[greendot]

Am I the only one that uses the washer bottle for an oil catch??????????????????

[dj10]

Am I the only one that uses the washer bottle for an oil catch?????????????????? [/b]

What happens when you buy a car and there is a good Aluminum Moroso Oil catch/ vent sitting exactly where the washer bottle is? My setup is much safer and more durable than a chinsey plastic container. Hmmm, lets see, safety or plastic. So hard to choose.


Any more discussion on this lets use "rules and regs" this is not the appropriate place for this.

[Dave Burchfield]

Matt,

Yes, the RX7 will be there.......a new engine is in the process right now.

All,

Suffice it to say that tech will be appropriate to the stature of the event. The person coordinating it is a Senior license holder with many years of Runoffs and Pro experience who is interested in the whole experience being meaningful. As a competitor and member of the region, I will feel good about the whole deal.

This is going to be so much fun for everyone..........I can hardly wait until all can be revealed. I expect to be the first to be registered.

[RSTPerformance]

In other words you had better have your washer bottles



Don't get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I've ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH!!! I'M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!!
[/b]

umm that was partial sarcasm... "IE: the wink "

Basically in one post I said, lets not murder people for noncompetitive advantage stuff, especially if we are not checking the "meat" or "real cheaters." If this is a "pro caliber" event, then we/you should be expected to be legal with the entire car. Now that still doesn't mean be silly and drive away members for stupid stuff.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I've ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ENOUGH!!! I'M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!!
[/b]

Dan,

Save your keystrokes. The washer bottle is just the lightning rod for items people consider 'useless' in racecars. There is no mention of them specifically in the ITCS but people love to harp on them. IT is based in Showroom stock with a decent amount of allowed mods. There are tons of 'non-performance-based' items people would remove if they could - and it has been proven that one persons idea of usless is way different than others, no need to open Pandoras box, this is easy stuff. I don't care how old your car is, it's not hard to source these types of parts - eBay is king. Your car came with a cool catch can that replaces a part that is supposed to be there? Move it. I have to 'over-engineer' a similar item to stay compliant. Dems the rules.

Back on topic...I agree with Jakes post:

My suggestion to tech is be fair. But be strict. Tell people to bring legal cars, and hold them to it. Use the random element of surprse. Don't worry if you can't check every car for everything....but if there's something thats not right about a car..any car, including mine, write it up.[/b]

[Rabbit07]

Devils advocate here;

Pro Caliber event? The Pros cheat way more than the Club Racers