how to estimate potential competitiveness?

[tom91ita]

i am planning vacation requests for next year's ARRC event. i have never been to road atlanta and expect a huge learning curve for the track first time.

but it has brought up another idea with regards to trying to judge competitiveness. at first glance, it looks like the times of the top cars in ITA, B, C are close to times for people at Mid-Ohio.

is it reasonable to assume that my relative times at Mid-Ohio compared to these same folks reflect my potential (after significant track time, of course) at RA?

and not just for RA and the ARRC, what do others do when trying to determine if they could be competitive?

tia, tom

[lateapex911]

I think part of your post might be MIA, but i think you are asking: if you are XX seconds ahead of John Doe in his Blasto Special at Mid Ohio, that you will be the same amount at Road Atlanta??

Maybe. If the car you drive is similar, yes.

Maybe not. Case in point: Andy Bettencourt and Greg Amy. I'll use those guys as an example because they post here and many are familiar with them. Greg won the ARRCs in ITA in his Nissan NX2000. But at Lime Rock, Greg has his hands full of Bettencourt Miata, and Andy has taken home a number of first place trophies.

Why? Because the Miata is a great handler, and gets down the 85+ MPH downhill turn leading onto the semi short Lime Rock straight a significant amount faster then most ITA cars, Gregs included. Lime Rock is technical and momentum oriented, similar in many respects to Mid Ohio.

But at Road Atlanta, Greg was king...because the lead his motor built on the straight was too much for the rest of the track to equilize.

So, if your cars strengths tend to be power oriented, your relative performance should be better at RA than your comparative competition. And vice versa. Does that make sense?

[tom91ita]

say someone i have run with in the same group at mid-ohio is running 1:44's in ITA and someone in ITC at mid-ohio has run 1:49's. both of these guys have had podium finishes in the past at the arrc.

both of these ita and itc cars are honda/acura's. i run itb, also in a honda.

these same guys have run 1:43 to 1:44's and 1:49 to 1:50's in ITA and ITC, respectively, at the ARRC. if i run 1:48's at mid-ohio, is it reasonable to expect that i could run 1:48 to 1:49's at road atlanta after some track time?

and in a broader sense, do any of you do similar things when trying to look at if you are realizing the potential of your car at a track where you have never been?

[dazzlesa]

it all depends on how well you adapt to road atlanta. for some reason i cannot find the time i am missing at ra. my car is plenty quick at RA but i beleive i am throwing time away at a # of corners.

[lateapex911]

Well, sure, in SIMILAR cars, you can assume you should be in the same relative place time-wise.

RA is a cool place, and there are some places that you just HAVE to do certain things to make the time. (Just don't ask ME where those are, LOL) Thats just a question of familiarity, I suppose. If you are going to go, be sure to run the test day...most fast guys come off the track after their first session looking a bit dazed. But after the test day, they're right with the program. But it's not a simple track, so give yourself the best shot.

[RSTPerformance]

I have run both Mid Ohio, and Road Atlanta in ITB. Unfortunatly at Mid Ohio, my car was not running right. At RA I have turned mid 48's in ITB. When I was at Mid Ohio that same year I think that the top ITB cars were turning 50's but I could be wrong. Those same people went to the ARRC and also turned in the 49-50 range. Based on my expereince at Mid-Ohio I think that if it was a better weekend for me, I could have been below a 50 easily.

Based on that I would say that YES both tracks were compairable in times, and in performance level required by the car/driver to achieve those times. IMO a strong driver/car combo at Mid-Ohio would probably be a strong combo at Road Atlanta. However if it took you a long time to learn Mid-Ohio I bet you will have a hard time figuring out the "speed secrets" at Atlanta. While the track isn't as scary as Lime Rock, thier are a lot of areas you need to get used to in order to go fast... I am not sure I can say that about Mid-Ohio.

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

Rick, buy a DL-1 and I'll be glad to do some driver consulting with you this next year... - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rick, buy a DL-1 and I'll be glad to do some driver consulting with you this next year... - GA [/b]

No. Don't do it. There is no value. Nope, none. Nada. Zero, zilch.

Seriously, it would be real cool for Greg to load all of our data onto one curve and see who is faster where and why! I am in.

[Rabbit07]

While the track isn't as scary as Lime Rock, thier are a lot of areas you need to get used to in order to go fast... I am not sure I can say that about Mid-Ohio.

Raymond
[/b]

I disaggree, the down hill turn at Atlanta is much more scary than the one at Lime Rock.

I too ran similar times at Atlanta that I do at Mid-O in a similar car. Although, this last ARRC was my first time to Atlanta.

[Hracer]

Maybe not. Case in point: Andy Bettencourt and Greg Amy.
...
But at Road Atlanta, Greg was king...because the lead his motor built on the straight was too much for the rest of the track to equilize.
[/b]

I don't know if we can use those two people for comparison, when one of them has not even yet run Road Atlanta I am really looking forward to see how fast the Miatas will be next year, particularly Bob Stretch once he gets his figured out, and also Andy if he decides to run. As far as Greg's motor, that is that car's single biggest strength. It was fun watching Joe Moser's ITA incar video and see the dramatic contrast between the two very different, but equal cars. But I would disagree with Greg's lead on the straight as being too much for the rest of the track to equalize. In fact, based on just Joe's video of the first 10 mins of the race, it seemed like he had things under control every lap and was just waiting to make his move, probably in the last 10 mins of the race.

A thing about Road Atlanta, I honestly think it is a very difficult track to really get right. First, it is quite intimidating, which plays a big part in the learning curve. Second, although many can go around there plenty fast, it seems a lot fewer people can actually squeeze those last drops of speed out of that place. And being a difficult track, there are quite a few drops to be found.

it all depends on how well you adapt to road atlanta. for some reason i cannot find the time i am missing at ra. my car is plenty quick at RA but i beleive i am throwing time away at a # of corners.
[/b]

Agreed Rick. You are really fast at the other place I've been on track with you - VIR. If you could somehow get that same speed out of Road Atlanta, you would be right there up front.

[dazzlesa]

it is under complete consideration. guessing is not cutting it!

[Greg Amy]

...it seemed like he had things under control every lap and was just waiting to make his move, probably in the last 10 mins of the race.
[/b]

I completely agree. Joe was running a very smart, calculated race, designed to allow the two of us to move along and break away, without losing touch of said leader. I certainly know where *I* would have passed; those last 2-3 laps would have been a hoot!

The most famous saying in racing applies: "Just wait'll next year!"

[IPRESS]

I don't know if we can use those two people for comparison, when one of them has not even yet run Road Atlanta I am really looking forward to see how fast the Miatas will be next year, particularly Bob Stretch once he gets his figured out, and also Andy if he decides to run. As far as Greg's motor, that is that car's single biggest strength. It was fun watching Joe Moser's ITA incar video and see the dramatic contrast between the two very different, but equal cars. But I would disagree with Greg's lead on the straight as being too much for the rest of the track to equalize. In fact, based on just Joe's video of the first 10 mins of the race, it seemed like he had things under control every lap and was just waiting to make his move, probably in the last 10 mins of the race.

A thing about Road Atlanta, I honestly think it is a very difficult track to really get right. First, it is quite intimidating, which plays a big part in the learning curve. Second, although many can go around there plenty fast, it seems a lot fewer people can actually squeeze those last drops of speed out of that place. And being a difficult track, there are quite a few drops to be found.

Agreed Rick. You are really fast at the other place I've been on track with you - VIR. If you could somehow get that same speed out of Road Atlanta, you would be right there up front.
[/b]

Bob has been working on the miata in ITA longer then you guys think. He has always been pretty good at getting power in the past ie David's car (240) that Bob use to lap the heck out of all the SOWDIV miatas with back in the day. Actually I think this is Bob's second attempt at the IT miata. I also think he and Chris sort of threw their hands up the first time. He seems closer now, but I think most of Bob's drives during the ARRC weekend were as good as they were becuse he was wringing as much out of his car as he could get. It is not just coming out of T7 either. The few times I was able to see Bob (and Kip in the ITS race) go through T5 they had to carry their momentum on the very edge to keep ahead of the "Tork Monsters". What I mean is, Bob's car might get a little better, but I don't think there is much more. He seems to get the max of whats there. I know it is great to see those guys make the girly car go through the turns.

[RSTPerformance]

I disaggree, the down hill turn at Atlanta is much more scary than the one at Lime Rock.
[/b]

I am suprised at that... do you run both flat out? I am sure that it depends a lot on the car... In my ITB Audi I have a tough time running flatout in the downhill at Lime Rock, but it is possible, I have done it before... At Road Atlanta I was flat out on my second lap at the track, without any issues. Road Atlanta is so much smoother and so much wider wich may make a big difference in the fear factor at least for me and my car. Being smooth certainly makes it a lot easier on the car. Also for many people (not saying you) Road Atlanta is soo wide and the line is not always as obviose as it is at places like Lime Rock making it easy to race "off-line." If you are not on line but think you are at Road Atlanta you will be slow, and a hell of a lot more scared IMO.

As for Gregs car and Andy's car I think that they would compete the same with eachother no matter if it was Mid-Ohio or Atlanta... basicaly at this point Gregs car would probably have that power advantage at both tracks.

Raymond

[Hracer]

I completely agree. Joe was running a very smart, calculated race, designed to allow the two of us to move along and break away, without losing touch of said leader. I certainly know where *I* would have passed; those last 2-3 laps would have been a hoot!

The most famous saying in racing applies: "Just wait'll next year!"
[/b]

That's what it looked like from the sidelines. I was really looking forward to the last 5 or so laps of that race.

Ipress, my comment about Bob's car mainly came from what he wrote on here a month ago.

I have my own ITA 1.8 miata, but I have a feeling it is going to be down on power. We came too late to this ball game and our car hasn't had the development it needs. [/b]

[JLawton]

I am usually pretty good about learning new tracks quickly. Road Atlanta was a big exception. Not only is it intimidating (more so than Lime Rock I think. Granted, I have a bazzilion days at Lime Rock) but takes awhile to learn its secrets (So I'm told cause I still don't know them!!).

Don't worry about what times you think you should be running at RA compared to Mid Ohio, as the ad says, "JUST DO IT". If you can run with the guys from Ohio, you can run with the guys at RA.

[Rabbit07]

I am suprised at that... do you run both flat out? I am sure that it depends a lot on the car... In my ITB Audi I have a tough time running flatout in the downhill at Lime Rock, but it is possible, I have done it before... At Road Atlanta I was flat out on my second lap at the track, without any issues. Road Atlanta is so much smoother and so much wider wich may make a big difference in the fear factor at least for me and my car. Being smooth certainly makes it a lot easier on the car. Also for many people (not saying you) Road Atlanta is soo wide and the line is not always as obviose as it is at places like Lime Rock making it easy to race "off-line." If you are not on line but think you are at Road Atlanta you will be slow, and a hell of a lot more scared IMO.

Raymond
[/b]

Lime Rock was tought for me to drive the down hill without a little lift. Although I only got about 40 laps there when I went earlier this year.
It took until the ITA race on Sat at the ARRC until I could drive the down hill at Atlanta flat out. Visually I couln't get over it, it just didn't seem to inspire confidence.

[R2 Racing]

Tom, I think the Moser's, Colin, and I would all agree that in our ITA Honda's, we all expect to be able to equal or beat our Mid Ohio lap times at Road Atlanta. This changed a little bit this year though as Road Atlanta slowed down for all of us when compared to last year.

Last year my fastest times were 1:44.6 at Mid Ohio and 1:43.1 at Road Atlanta. This year my fastest were 1:43.3 at Mid Ohio and 1:43.8 at Road Atlanta. The car was definately faster this year but for some reason none of us could even match our 2005 ARRC times.

So typically I would say yes, expect to run about the exact same time between the two tracks. But like others have said, Road Atlanta can take a while to get that last 5% out of. This year was my third straight year running the ARRC and it still took me until Saturday to get my butt moving in the esses and turn 5.

[lateapex911]

I don't know if we can use those two people for comparison, when one of them has not even yet run Road Atlanta I am really looking forward to see how fast the Miatas will be next year, particularly Bob Stretch once he gets his figured out, and also Andy if he decides to run. As far as Greg's motor, that is that car's single biggest strength. It was fun watching Joe Moser's ITA incar video and see the dramatic contrast between the two very different, but equal cars. But I would disagree with Greg's lead on the straight as being too much for the rest of the track to equalize. In fact, based on just Joe's video of the first 10 mins of the race, it seemed like he had things under control every lap and was just waiting to make his move, probably in the last 10 mins of the race.

[/b]

Interesting....

But I should note that the CRX crowd begged to differ. I got some poo hurled at me privately after the ARRC, and the term, "You've legislated the CRX out of competition" was used.

My reaction was that no way is the car uncompetitive, and that it can win at lots of tracks on any day.....AND, if the race had been diffferent in Atlanta, (Amy breaks, or tosses it away under pressure) the result could have been much different.

The reply was, "Doesn't matter, the result is the result. The guys who go to Atlanta go to win, not to finish 2nd or 3rd, and that car can't win there the way it's classed, esp against a car that has that kind of power. The CRXs have every last hp there is to be had, hundreds of dyno runs, and thousands of dollars were spent, and they were destroyed on the straight. You can't class cars like that, Road Atlanta has to be your classing benchmark"

Well, it's too late for that, and I don't necessarily agree with that philosophy anyway. But, there are those close to the heart of the CRX camp that swear the car is toast.

(For the record, I disagree)

[Bildon]

>> "You've legislated the CRX out of competition"
>> My reaction was that no way is the car uncompetitive

Judging from this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoGGTZ-UoCk
You either can't brake and turn :P OR the CRX is still a light, nimble very effective car.
So, I vote for the latter. In fact, I saw a few areas in this where either the Honda or the driver were not "optimized" and in my opinion he could have been glued to your bumper, or past you a few times.

The same reason the SIR Bimmer guys boycotted Road Atlanta this year is a major reason why the Nissan ruled that day. HP! Now if you had raced those Hondas at Mid-Ohio perhaps they all would have spanked you.

Road Atlanta is an HP track. I had the same advantage in my Corrado at WGI and Road Atlanta this year. We'd like to think it was all driver, but car choice and prep are a bigger part of it. eg: At Nelson, a handling track we know VERY well, we were still 3 seconds off the record pace this year. 3 seconds! And I shudder to think what would happen if I went to LRP with the Corrado.

Point is, racing evolves. Are we going to turn into a bunch of old farts that dont want anything but CRX, GTI, RX7 etc to win? Remember the MG, Triumph, Healey crowd? They did this an nearly killed the club. NASA is coming...wake up!

>>I honestly think it is a very difficult track to really get right.
>> Road Atlanta can take a while to get that last 5% out of.

Yes. Yes it can. :P I was lost all day Thursday after being away for years. I know others from up here mentioned the same thing. There are a lot of tricks and while I thought I remembered them all, like Golf, 'executing" is a whole different story.