1.6 Liter Miata adds 50lbs - why?

[Andy Bettencourt]

O.K., so besides being wrong about the original question. . . the 1.6L was moved up to 2255 January '06,
and also maybe making a poor choice in car for ITA (1.6 miata) . . . was the 2205 weight for the early 1.6L miata the "right" weight? Was that change made because someone was winning a bunch of races?
Thanks!

Neal Norton [/b]

Actually this is what happened (hope I don't double post with Jake):

In the winter of 2005, all cars were run through the classification 'process'. This process is used to classify new cars to the ITCS as well as cars moving around the classes (like from ITS to ITA or from ITA to IT. Because there was no documented method for setting weights prior to this new way, the ITAC wanted to 'reset' all the cars in the GCR via the process. This was don eso that we could move forward on a (theoretical) level playing field. Some gained weight, most lost weight. On-track results were not used AT ALL as a basis for the change - but in 99% of the cases, those results supported what was happening on paper.

The list was published in the Feb 06 FastTrack addendum located here. The 1.6 Miata has been 2255 for almost all of 2006.

1.6 ITA cars have had some success. Bret DePedro in the MARRS series and Mike VanSteenburg out of Florida both ran fast cars and won races.

[Greg Amy]

...was the 2205 weight for the early 1.6L miata the "right" weight? Was that change made because someone was winning a bunch of races?
[/b]

Neal, you're stepping into a pile of cow stuff that's been years in the making (VERY BIG GRIN!!!). I know you're "new", so here's a kinda-quickie explanation (a much longer one can be had be selecting "IT.COM Forums" at the top and start reading from the beginning... :P )

Once upon a time - circa 1983 - a few regions across the country started a class called Improved Touring. It became wildly popular, mostly because it gave a place to play for outdated Showroom Stock cars (back then we had four of them - SSGT, SSA, SSB, SSC). Several of these regions lobbied SCCA National (then in Englewood, CO) to recognize it as a class for National racing. Englewood refused, but compromised by publishing a standard set of rules for IT as a separate GCR book (back then the GCR and all the category specs were separate books).

However, Englewood added in there a couple of sticklers: first, IT was to forever be a Regional-Only class; second, so that they didn't have to put a lot of priority and time in it, they added the "no guarantee of competitiveness" clause. Bottom line: 'we're giving you some place to run these cars, but really nothing else.'

Well, no one really expected IT to grow as it has over the last 20+ years. It was, has, and probably will continue to be one of the most consistently-popular categories in SCCA history. During that time period cars were dropped into IT upon request, but the weights were never given much priority; it seems they were haphazardly slapped into a class and the weight was done by vote and/or "rule of thumb" (and some say with conflicts of interest, though that has never been proven).

This was the case up until about three years ago or so. Right about 2001-2003 time frame the participants within IT began a truly grassroots effort to put some type of reasonable system in place for approving, categorizing, and setting the weights for Improved Touring cars. Probably due to a major shift in management of SCCA, the Improved Touring Advisory Committee was formed (2004?) and requests for reclassification and weight setting were sent to these guys. They made their recommendations to the Competition Review Board, and the CRB made their suggestions to the BoD for approval.

Their first visible order of business was to get approved a systematic, somewhat-objective-and-formulaic weight-setting process that considered the physical characteristics of the car, such as drive layout, suspension/chassis design, and manufacturer's reported stock horsepower. This, they were able to get through the CRB and Bod. Once approved, the next move was to reclass obviously mis-classed cars out of ITS and into ITA, such as my Nissan NX2000 and a few other front-wheel-drive four-cylinder cars. These ITS-to-ITA cars were the first ones sent through this formulaic process.

Over the winter of 2005-6 the ITAC set upon grinding all the remaining prior-classed cars through this formulaic weight-setting process; the result was the list of cars with their weights re-set in the February 2006 Fastrack. NONE (zero, zilch, nada, zippo) of those changes were as a result of ANY race results. ZIPPO consideration for how they've done in the past. Every one of those changes was as a result of taking the existing fleet and running them through the new process. The fact that you may see some of the dominating cars getting weight added can be (and typically, is) viewed as evidence that the process wasn't right before. But, given it was rule-of-thumb and wink-wink before, that's not so surprising...

One other note of significance for the new ITAC process is that the ITS E36 BMW was judged to be so significantly out of proper weight-classing that it was given an intake restrictor instead of adding up to (or more than) 300 pounds of weight. The history of that car in ITS, along with the actions leading up to the intake restrictors, is a whole 'nother history lesson, and a painful one at that, best learned by reading through the forum. This, however, set the precedence for other cars in other classes to be possibly reigned in, should their performance potential be found to be significantly better than the formulaic process indicated (such as the ITA 1.8L Miata - bwah, hah, hah...couldn't resist...JUST KIDDING!!!).

The results are what you see today: reasonable classification of cars within each class of IT, and weights set with a mostly-objective process. As Jake pointed out, the fact that we can reasonably and diametrically disagree is probably evidence in and of itself the process is working...!

Phew! Back to work... - GA

[tnord]

thanks Greg, i love reading through class/SCCA history.

[camop]

Thank You Andy and Greg!

Great explanations and history lesson.

Regards,

Neal

[DavidM]

I will challenge you Greg my boy, the 240SX and the Teg are the best combo of power and handling. The 240 is just too hard to keep together for most. But time will tell. Maybe in 2 years we will be talking about the Gen 2 MR-2!
[/b]

Damn. You make it sound like I should be winning races or something. I haven't found the 240 all that difficult to maintain or drive. I have 2 seasons on the current motor with nothing more than normal maintenance. It's getting tired, but I'm going to try and get one more season out of it. It's just that my driving sucks. Of course, Bob did all the development work on it before I got it.

David

[JeffYoung]

DAvid for some one coming along just 2 years behind me, I'd say you are progressing just fine. You made a good choice in buying a proven winner, and you have been getting faster with it. It truly amazed me how much I had to learn to even sniff the top 5 and it takes a while to get there. You will too.

You'll also find out how much harder running 10/10ths is on the car vis a vis even 9/10ths. I hadn't heard anything about 240s not staying together either, but once you get it running REALLY had, who knows what can happen.

You know Tristan Smith in Atlanta? He'd be a good resource for you as well.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I hadn't heard anything about 240s not staying together either...

[/b]

From what I learned when searching for one in 2004, they are ultra-sensitive to temp. The distributor is in place where it gets super hot as well...working these issues out is critcal...150whp is the goal too!

I LOVE that ex-Stretch car.............

Photo: Nutdriver.org

[IPRESS]

Is the formula written somewhere? I think Andy sort of explained it to me over the phone one night, but I was so worried about spring rates that I forgot most of what he said about it.
Having some sort of starting point is the right way to proceed. Where we are might not be just right, but with time we will find out.
One point to bring up from one of the "history posts" is that if we wait a dozen years to get fully developed we will most likely be running in a vintage class!
Bob and I are going to try to get the Atlanta Region to move the ARRC to Motorsport Ranch (Ft. Worth) where a one squirrel car can really shine!
Our only problem is finding someone to BBQ some pulled pork in Texas. Beef rules west of the Mississippi River and I am not so sure those GA boys would go for that. Falling down drunk at MSR hurts more then at RAtlanta.....cactus vs. kudzu.

[lateapex911]

Is the formula written somewhere? I think Andy sort of explained it to me over the phone one night, but I was so worried about spring rates that I forgot most of what he said about it.

[/b]

LOL....you had your chance.....if you forgot it, it's time to return your secret spy decoder ring.

And it's more of a formulaic process than it is a pure formula. (Just to be clear, LOL)

[IPRESS]

LOL....you had your chance.....if you forgot it, it's time to return your secret spy decoder ring.

And it's more of a formulaic process than it is a pure formula. (Just to be clear, LOL)
[/b]

Well thats a relief.....Since I forgot what he said I guess you guys won't have to kill me! :P

Maybe Tom Hanks will do a movie on it.

[DavidM]

You know Tristan Smith in Atlanta? He'd be a good resource for you as well.
[/b]

Tristan was actually one of the first people I met when I started (actually before I started) racing. He and Bowie met with me over some beers to tell me what I was getting into.

From what I learned when searching for one in 2004, they are ultra-sensitive to temp. The distributor is in place where it gets super hot as well...working these issues out is critcal...150whp is the goal too!

I LOVE that ex-Stretch car.............
[/b]

I've read of people having distributor issues, but I haven't experienced any. Bob did some work on shoe-horning in a monster radiator along with the oil cooler so temp hasn't been an issue (other than my intake manifold adventure). Wheel bearings may be the biggest thing to worry about. I've replaced all 4 since I've had the car and I only do sprint races right now. The spherical bearings get used up over time as well.

That picture doesn't show the good side of the car. It's known as the Whee car by the Atlanta workers. It'll get painted someday.

David

[CaptainWho]

That picture doesn't show the good side of the car. It's known as the Whee car by the Atlanta workers. It'll get painted someday.[/b]

Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't get any more photos of you, and that one's pretty ratty, too, but I thought I'd put nearly everything up so everyone I got photos of could see at least a blurry something. Maybe Clark or Jack got some shots of you.