07 MiDiv Schedule

[tnord]

http://www.midiv.org/Code/Calendar.htm

bonus race at st louis

memorial day at memphis

1 race during june (national only at HPT), but 7 during July and August

[mustanghammer]

Travis,

I agree, not very good. I have raised concerns with Chuck Clark and he told me that several items like the bonus race are yet to be decided. There is a meeting scheduled for 11/30 that shoudl firm up next year.

I would urge you to chime in with your concerns. Here is what i see specific to HPT and KVRG:

* A drivers school the following weekend after the StL super school

* No restricted IT race in conjunction with the HPT Nationals and nothing scheduled that would allow these points to be recovered.

Of course the regions are at the mercy of the tracks that they deal with but there are number instances where events are stacked together in a manner that will guarantee two poorly attended races.

[tnord]

i have also contacted Chuck Clark regarding the schedule.

I don't think the no IT race in conjuction with the national is such a big deal, but the drivers school and bonus race i agree with you on.

you going to be at creekside for the annual meeting?

[mustanghammer]

Yep, I'll be there.

Not sure about tonight's race group meeting. I may be helping David Long pick up his EP car from the body shop.

What I would really like to discuss is a way to enhance Regional races so participation goes up. Putting on money loosing events is not healthy for the sponsor regions or the racers.

[tnord]

i'm with you 100% Scott. i think we need to try and do something to bump interest in regional competition (specifically IT, as it is often the point of entry for all racers), i've been thinking of an endurance series to take the place of the IT tour....but i dunno. i don't think i'll make it tonight either as i have to prepare for my trip back to MN tomorrow, but i will be at the annual. i'll try and track you down, i'll be the tall guy hanging around the johnsons and probably the youngest guy in attendance.

[bldn10]

"bonus race at st louis memorial day at memphis"

Travis, what's your problem w/ these events? Memorial weekend is a tradition of many years here at Memphis and will remain so. The Bonus Race alternates among the various tracks/Regions. Frankly, it is generally a money loser and not everyone is itching to host it.

[tnord]

my problem with st louis is that it sucks as a track. personally, i also hate it cause it's a helluva drive for me, but what's bad for me is good for somebody else. i did my double school and first SCCA race at st louis 3yrs ago, and i haven't driven it since. there's lots of concrete in close proximity to the track, and it heavily favors cars with big HP rather than driving ability. hardly the ideal location to hold what turns out to be the championship race for regional drivers.

my problem with memphis on memorial day is i think the division loses out on a lot of entries having it out there. memorial day weekend gives the opportunity to draw out of division entries who have long trips to get there. people need a good reason to travel a long way to race, such as a great track (RA, Laguna, VIR, etc) or a big event (first national at the runoffs site). memphis provides neither. it is a lowly attended event no matter what you do, and i feel like the division is losing out on a lot of opportunity. the financial sustainability of the club should take precedent over a specific region's preference.

[OTLimit]

Personally, there are too many race weekends on the calendar no matter how you slice it. I can not say this enough times: there are only "X" number of entries to be had in a division (obviously not looking at out-of-division drivers), and by having too many races, it just dilutes the population at any given event, as well as the worker pool. Give drivers too many options and they will pick and choose, and somebody is going to get the short end of the stick.

But trying to get any race organization to give up a race weekend is worse then pulling teeth.

I do have a real problem with two races for points in the division on the same day at different tracks, regardless of the locations. Isn't that the whole point of working together? So that the calendar is NOT conflicted?

[charrbq]

Travis,

I'm not going to argue all of your points, as I'm uneducated in all of them. But I love to go to Memphis on Memorial Day. I pass up a race at TWS the same weekend and the same distance from me to go to race with you guys. There will always be a subscription problem at all race tracks on Memorial and Labor Day weekends. There are just too many things to take our time and attention...not too mention all the racing opportunities. When I go to Memphis, besides usually having a class, I have fun racing and partying with all you guys...more so than I do in SOWDIV. Plus, I get two days of racing, something they don't seem to have the luxury of down here.

That's just a couple of cents (sense) worth of comments.

[fiat124girl]

Personally, there are too many race weekends on the calendar no matter how you slice it. I can not say this enough times: there are only "X" number of entries to be had in a division (obviously not looking at out-of-division drivers), and by having too many races, it just dilutes the population at any given event, as well as the worker pool. Give drivers too many options and they will pick and choose, and somebody is going to get the short end of the stick.

But trying to get any race organization to give up a race weekend is worse then pulling teeth.

I do have a real problem with two races for points in the division on the same day at different tracks, regardless of the locations. Isn't that the whole point of working together? So that the calendar is NOT conflicted?
[/b]

Lesley,

You couldn't be more correct.

[tnord]

agreed. our division is way too big with too many dates. we span from western nebraska to memphis, and now we have a race in nashville or something? i don't know how many miles that is, but i'm guessing it's a 15hr drive just from the nebraska track to memphis. does anyone else see this as absurd?

and you're right albin, you'll never get a region to give up an event. it is my personal opinion that memphis should go to the new CenDiv (or apparantly maybe SOW), and the new one in western nebraska should go to Rocky Mtn. we've got topeka, omaha, hallet, st louis, and now des moines (with a good shot of another one popping up next year). that's more than enough tracks to field a full schedule.

charrbq i'm really glad you enjoy our division's race at memphis, but i stand by all my prior statements.

[bldn10]

So, Travis, when it comes down to it, your complaint about the Bonus Race at St. Louis and the Memorial weekend race at Memphis is not about scheduling but w/ the fact that you just don't like those tracks. Know what? Not a damn thing you or we can do about that. Using your logic I guess we would never have a race at either! That one track may be a HP one and another a handling one is one of the reasons the Bonus Race alternates. Another is to spread it around geographically. It evens out over the years. You think I was happy about the Bonus Race at MAM these last 2 years?

So what are you saying about Memorial weekend - that the event would get a better turnout on some other weekend? That weekend this year you had your choice of Memphis, New Hampshire, Kershaw (SC), Grattan, or Texas World. I don't think we lose many entries to those tracks.

[tnord]

So, Travis, when it comes down to it, your complaint about the Bonus Race at St. Louis and the Memorial weekend race at Memphis is not about scheduling but w/ the fact that you just don't like those tracks. Know what? Not a damn thing you or we can do about that. [/b]

um, well, we could not have the bonus race at St Louis, that's what we can do about it. Honestly, do you think entries will be higher or lower at St. Louis for the bonus race regional and non-points regional weekend then at the school/enduro/bonus race at MAM?

Using your logic I guess we would never have a race at either! That one track may be a HP one and another a handling one is one of the reasons the Bonus Race alternates. Another is to spread it around geographically. It evens out over the years. You think I was happy about the Bonus Race at MAM these last 2 years?
[/b]

no, we need to have races at st louis. lots of members are there and i've seen some decent turnouts, though i'm not sure if or how profitable they are. memphis, as i said above, i think needs to rehome to CenDiv. the ideal location for a "championship race" is one that doesn't favor any particular vehicle. kinda like how the bowl games, super bowl, NCAA tournament, etc, are all played at neutral sites. I think MAM is the most neutral site we have, and is relatively central to everyone.

So what are you saying about Memorial weekend - that the event would get a better turnout on some other weekend? That weekend this year you had your choice of Memphis, New Hampshire, Kershaw (SC), Grattan, or Texas World. I don't think we lose many entries to those tracks.
[/b]

you right, we hardly lose any entries that weekend having that race at Memphis. there's no reason to tow a long distance to race there. however, hold the first national of the year at HPT, and now you've got people towing in from long distances, higher attendence at the test day, etc. bottom line, the division is maximizing their $ potential. we won't have the runoffs forever, we should milk it as best we can for the next 5yrs.

[fiat124girl]

Travis,

I can tell you I was pretty upset that the bonus race was at MAM last year, that is a heck of a drive for us and I am not particularly fond of the track.

I love having the Memorial Day Race in Memphis, we have such a good time and Jude really enjoys that track.

Going to Nashville might be a long drive but I think we should be happy to have so many tracks to choose from. When we were in Texas we really only had TMS and Corpus Christi once in awhile.

We are pretty lucky in the MidWest.

However, that said, there are just too many events. There are only so many racers to go around but eventually, the market will set everything right and the races that are undersubscribed will fade away.

[mustanghammer]

Personally my objections to the schedule are not based on where the events are being held. Instead I have a problem with the way they are arranged on the calendar.

For example, the Memphis race on Memorial Day weekend could really be a draw for much of the Division however there is a MAM R/N the weekend prior. What this creates, potentially, are two poorly attended races in a row. The drivers in the western part of the division are likely going to go to MAM and skip Memphis. Drivers in St Louis and east will likely circle Memphis and skip MAM. In the MidWest Division there just aren't that many racers to go around.

Oh and the schedule gets worse later in the year where there are 4 races in 4 weekends....DUMB!

Yes, there are two many races scheduled. How do we make the regions wise up....they won't until they loose their asses financially. Then we are all screwed.

Reagrading St Louis and the bonus race - the race has been there in the past and it did okay. The double regiona that they always have in October usually draws pretty well as long as Ced Div doesn't have a race the same weekend at Black Hawk.

What about this:

* We eliminate the Regional/National format
* All events are Regional only or National only
* Have fewer events or have Double Nationals at poorly attended venues

Comments:

National events in Mid Div will draw well as long as they are scheduled so they are not competing with one another and the Run Offs are at HPT. All Regional events will be Doubles or School Regionals and will include a PDX/Club Trials/Track Trials run group(s) to bolster numbers.

Think about what that would do in the Memphis/MAM example I mentioned above. If the MAM event was a Double Regional and the Memphis race is a National only then the two dates are competeing for a different driver.

What do you think?

[tnord]

I completely understand that what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. my personal distaste for st louis and memphis, and your personal distaste for MAM should be irrelevant. what matters is participation #'s and financial sustainability.

i don't think that St. Louis bonus race and Memphis memorial day is in the best financial interests of the club, that's all.

scott -

it's a good idea, but i'm not sure it would solve the problem. I think then you'd have everyone fighting over the national race weekends, and nobody would want to host the regional only events. i know we don't like the idea that we're "second class," but i'm pretty sure the school/regional/pdx weekends are money losers. remember topeka last year?

yes, i'm with you 100% on how poorly the dates are arranged though. there are forces working beneath the surface that have influenced this though.

[mustanghammer]

scott -

it's a good idea, but i'm not sure it would solve the problem. I think then you'd have everyone fighting over the national race weekends, and nobody would want to host the regional only events. i know we don't like the idea that we're "second class," but i'm pretty sure the school/regional/pdx weekends are money losers. remember topeka last year?

yes, i'm with you 100% on how poorly the dates are arranged though. there are forces working beneath the surface that have influenced this though.
[/b]

Travis,

I feel like less of a "second class citizen" at a Double Regional that provides lots of competition, decent track time and no chance that my regional run group will be cancelled if National races run long or get delayed (this has happened).

Here is the concept - having fewer Regional races will make the ones that are held more profitable.

With respect to scheduling, giving the regions a choice between two different event types means that they can schedule events in ways that help ensure good participation for every event that they put on. The fact is that organizations like KVRG are willing to put on known money losing events on the HOPE that two big National weekends will bail them out. To my thinking this is a bad busness policy and and a member of the KC region I don't like my money wasted or wagered in this way. And be very clear on this....when the National Races fail to make a year profitable which races will groups like KVRG and MVRG cut? The Regional races.

From an IT racers perspective is there not much difference between a Regional/National that offers a Restricted Regional on Sunday and a Double Regional. If you seperate Regional and National races you creare a distinction that makes it clear where an IT racer is going to go with his car. It should make IT racing better and that is important to all of us.

The alternative is to elminate Regional Only classes and give everyone that races, pays dues, builds a car, and buys tires the same chance in this club. Oh, and I know you don't like this idea so you don't have to comment.

[tnord]

Travis,

I feel like less of a "second class citizen" at a Double Regional that provides lots of competition, decent track time and no chance that my regional run group will be cancelled if National races run long or get delayed (this has happened).

Here is the concept - having fewer Regional races will make the ones that are held more profitable.
[/b]

i've never felt second class even at nationals, but yes, i agree with you 100%. see my previous unpopular comments regarding relocation of memphis and hastings.

With respect to scheduling, giving the regions a choice between two different event types means that they can schedule events in ways that help ensure good participation for every event that they put on. The fact is that organizations like KVRG are willing to put on known money losing events on the HOPE that two big National weekends will bail them out. To my thinking this is a bad busness policy and and a member of the KC region I don't like my money wasted or wagered in this way. And be very clear on this....when the National Races fail to make a year profitable which races will groups like KVRG and MVRG cut? The Regional races.
[/b]

it may be wrong, but here's my understanding of this situation;
the money LOSING events are/were the driver's school weekends at MAM and HPT, specifically the one at HPT in the dead of summer. there's some arrangement (which i don't remember the details of) that every track has to put on at least one driver's school per year. even though the specific event is a money loser, it's probably profitable in the long run as a result of gaining new drivers. all the other events at MAM and HPT are profitable. i don't really see this scenario changing. i think what KVRG/MVRG/DMVR or whomever has done a fantastic job of is finding a way to make the school weekend a success through the annual 2hr enduro. i've been involved in it every year since they started and it is a TON of fun. KVRG/MVRG/KCR has started having the PDX stuff on our school weekends which i think is also a good idea. tack on another 20 or so entries and it turns your event from a loss to a break-even or slightly better scenario, all the while adding members and potential future drivers/workers.

but, as we've both said before, the situation could be further improved by cutting down the schedule.

From an IT racers perspective is there not much difference between a Regional/National that offers a Restricted Regional on Sunday and a Double Regional. If you seperate Regional and National races you creare a distinction that makes it clear where an IT racer is going to go with his car. It should make IT racing better and that is important to all of us.

The alternative is to elminate Regional Only classes and give everyone that races, pays dues, builds a car, and buys tires the same chance in this club. Oh, and I know you don't like this idea so you don't have to comment.
[/b]

for the most part your right, but i certainly take the Mid-Am races more seriously than the IT Tour races. i'm not in favor of going national, but we've been over that.

will i finally get a chance to introduce myself at the annual meeting on tuesday?

[bldn10]

"um, well, we could not have the bonus race at St Louis, that's what we can do about it. Honestly, do you think entries will be higher or lower at St. Louis for the bonus race regional and non-points regional weekend then at the school/enduro/bonus race at MAM?"

Why on earth should St. Louis be eliminated from the Bonus Race rotation? What I am getting from you is some of the most selfish opinion I think I have read on this forum. You want to eliminate St. Louis as a Bonus Race site solely because you don't like the track [I totalled a car there so don't tell me about it.]. You want Memphis to go into the CenDiv, which makes no geographic sense (SE maybe), because you don't want to have to race here because you don't like the track. And may it have anything to do w/ the fact that you live on the other side of the Division? Geez. Yes, FWIW I think St. Louis will have more entries than MAM. But it matters not.

"the ideal location for a "championship race" is one that doesn't favor any particular vehicle. kinda like how the bowl games, super bowl, NCAA tournament, etc, are all played at neutral sites. I think MAM is the most neutral site we have, and is relatively central to everyone."

How convenient that the track that you like and is close to you is the most neutral. Central - are you kidding me? Long ago the Division concluded that the most unfair advantage was not the type of track but "home field." Rotating the venue takes that out of the equation over the years. Division champions should be drivers who race well at all of the tracks in the Division. Because of its NON-central location some Mid-Am championships this year were "won" at MAM because there was hardly any competition. That is certainly not optimal.

"hold the first national of the year at HPT, and now you've got people towing in from long distances, higher attendence at the test day, etc."

Since you don't come to Memphis I can't expect you to know this but FYI people DO tow long distances to Memphis for that event, it is always our best-attended one of the season, we had like 70 cars on the test day, and it basically funds the rest of the season for us.

"bottom line, the division is maximizing their $ potential. we won't have the runoffs forever, we should milk it as best we can for the next 5yrs."

Travis, you seem to be under a misconception. The Division is not a profit center. It does not put on races, it does not pay for races; it is the umbrella under which the separate Regions operate. If you think overall revenue from events in the Division would go up by switching some of the events around, would you be willing to have a profit-sharing pool to be divided among the Regions? Otherwise, why should any Region give up profitable events so some other Region can make more?

I participated in the scheduling process last year and was taken aback w/ how difficult it is. Things like track availability, weather, tradition, and extra-Division events like the June Sprints, leave surprisingly very few flexible dates. There is a lot of give and take and compromise and, I promise you, if there are near-conflicts, there was a good reason why it turned out that way. (E.g. perhaps MVRG did not want to have their May MAM event 2 weekends before Memphis because it is Mother's Day.) W/ the new track coming on board it is only going to get more difficult.

[mustanghammer]

I'll be there