944 weight reduction, any results

[latebrake]

Jeff is talking about his TR8 at 160rwhp, not the 944.

Ron
[/b]

Sorry about that Jeff. i was just making talk about the 944 and not jumping anyone about the HP of other cars. no harm do i hope.

[JeffYoung]

No problem man, I wasn't clear.

Anthony, were are you going next with the 944S? Ron and I will be in ITR in 08 probably, probably in a Porsche or Nissan.

I'd still like to see a fully developed 944 at or near the 2575 weight and see what it could do.

[944-spec#94]

I agree that the 9448V is sort of a 'tweener'. It's too light at 2575 for ITS. I couldn't have, even if I went on a 25lb diet (which I could use) made the car, with no fuel, weigh less than 2665, which is 90lbs heavy. So, as I said, you could set the weight at ANYTHING, and it wouldn't make any difference. And this was a car that was completely stripped to the bare body shell of all extra undercoating, etc.[/b]

Chris,
I am not up on all the IT rules, but I run 944 NASA 944 spec. In this class we can strip out just about everything that does not make the car go, but we keep stock steel body & stock glass. My car with me in it runs 2633 with a passenger's seat and 40lbs of ballast. I still have all my under coatings and I weight 165 with full gear. I still have few things I can remove to get below 2600 with ease and can get close to 2575 if I look for a few more things. This on an 84 chassis, but I am not 100% certain out stripping rules are the same. Our 944 spec class has some 100+ 944 2.5L 8v cars being raced or built for the class and the 2600lbs seems fair. Although latter chassis seem to simply weight more than the 83-85 chassis.

So while 2575 is pretty light I'd bet a number of 944-spec prepared cars can make this weight.

As for hp our rules geared torward stock hp vs expecting a 20% gain. Most of our cars Dyno to 130's RWHP so no where near the 148 expect for ITS cars so would be dog slow even if we get close to min weight.

[latebrake]

While we are talking about the 944 i just thought i would mention that Jesse Wall and I just finished a 944S that we were going to run in Super Cup in NASA 944 cup (maybe) Jesse wants to buy and finish out a me-otter that his preacher has with 60k for 5k and he says he just may do it. the car has hard bushings in the rear and an auto power cage with new seats and the toyo tires have only one heat cycle on them the shocks front and rear are brand new (koni) as are the brake pads bla bla bla. I drove it at VIR on a member day and the thing is fast and gets around well. all it needs is the cut off swith and the fire bottle and its an ITS car. maybe the cage need another door bar,not sure about that. tower bar and camber plates all new. the car has rear coil overs right now but he has a set of 28mm t bars(=450#springs) for it in IT. he says he will sell if for $5500.00 bucks if its done soon. its not my car to post but if you are interested PM me or something. Jesse changes his mind with the wind and i have tried to talk him out of this as i have 300 hr work in the thing too but like i said its not my car.

[lateapex911]

One thing I will note: I was paddocked right next to Chris at the ARRCs, and his prep level is what can be expected out of someone who has turned over every rock in their search for performance. If he says he has the car as light as can be, I would think he's pretty close.

And I also know that as far as I have been able to determine, that a spare no expenses legal build comes in at about 185 -189 crank from that motor. Thats a net of about 155 - 158 at the wheels, and thats being aggressive with the reduction factor. (transaxle).

The nearest car, the 240SX has what, about 150 at the wheels in ITA? But it's inferior in suspension ...not entirely apples to apples.

So if it were to move into A, it should weigh a bit more than that.....like 2775 or so.

[Team SSR]

Jeff,
We like running the 944 in IT, especially the longer races. We may have an oppurtunity to run a GT1 car in the near future. Eventually we would like to be in a pro touring series.

[ChrisCamadella]

One thing I will note: I was paddocked right next to Chris at the ARRCs, and his prep level is what can be expected out of someone who has turned over every rock in their search for performance. If he says he has the car as light as can be, I would think he's pretty close.
[/b]

Why, thanks for the compliment, Jake...

And I also know that as far as I have been able to determine, that a spare no expenses legal build comes in at about 185 -189 crank from that motor. Thats a net of about 155 - 158 at the wheels, and thats being aggressive with the reduction factor. (transaxle).

The nearest car, the 240SX has what, about 150 at the wheels in ITA? But it's inferior in suspension ...not entirely apples to apples.

So if it were to move into A, it should weigh a bit more than that.....like 2775 or so.
[/b]

I'm thinking that might be a good weight in A for the 944 NA 8V - I'm sharpening my pencil...

I DO think that the earlier (pre-85.5) 944 chassis are lighter - you may even be able to make the ITS weight with one of those chassis, particularly with a light cage. The problem is that those chassis have far inferior suspension to the later models (steel control arms, both front and rear), so what you gained on the weight, you'd give up on the handling. I don't think (although it would be legal) that you can update the old chassis to the new suspension - too much stuff changed about the chassis.

[944-spec#94]

I don't think (although it would be legal) that you can update the old chassis to the new suspension - too much stuff changed about the chassis.
[/b]

Actually you can. It is as simple as unbolting the old stuff and bolting the new stuff on. In the rear you would swap the entine t-bar carrier with complete rear suspension and 1/2 shafts. In front you can swap arms only if you use the 85.5 or 86 stuff, but may need to swap spindles too if you want the 87-89 stuff.

My 84 chassis run steel arms in front with the rear suspension from an 87 924S which is infact the same parts as on an 86 944. I could run aluminum front arms, but I prefer the steels due to their non-binding in lowered application (I run below the 5" ITS min ride height) and bend before braking nature of sheet steel. Plus they are so darn cheap $25 each new.

[Fastfred92]

So if it were to move into A, it should weigh a bit more than that.....like 2775 or so.
[/b]

I think a 2700-2750 lbs 944 in ITA would be about right... Then it would be much easier to correct weight up or down to make it fit the ITA profile... As it is now the 944 8v has little chance in ITS and can't benifit from any more weight reduction within the IT ruleset

[Team SSR]

I think reclassifying the 944 fron ITS to ITA would bring more cars. The 944 converts very well into a track car, so a lot of people starting out build them just for DE's or auto X. I think SCCA could attract this crowd if there were some of these cars actually racing in IT.

[924Guy]

Absolutely; there's a lot of 944 racecars out there that could readily cross over into IT at that weight with little or no mods... and some of those drivers may be looking for a more intense racing experience than the other clubs, with more stringent contact rules, where they're currently racing. Or not.

[944-spec#94]

IMHO the 944 8valve cars make great race cars. IT prep is pretty good for the cars except for 1 thing.

MOTOR....

The cars take well to alot of chassis mods and there is a nice aftermarket support for them. The cars are robust and also take a pounding at the track pretty well. The issue is the 25% gain expected from an IT motor. Even when you down rate that to 18% getting more than 135 rwhp from motor in IT trim is not that easy. Some places show it can be done like Milledge, but the costs shoot up to the extreme. I am not sure how these costs compare to other cars, but lack of IT competitive hp is the biggest killer for the 944.


Really the best way to get 944s to run in IT is to class the car in ITA at 2650lbs and limit power to 140 rwhp. The great thing with that is 2650 is not hard weight to achieve and simple rebuild will get you close to 140 rwhp. This makes build a competitive 944 pretty easy. Clearly this kind of thing does not fit in the IT philosphy as you would need to restrict the development of the motor more severly than normally allowed. This would be special adjustment for the 944 and does not meet class intent.

So what is the answer? Hard to say? My car as preppared now is 2600lbs and 134whp is just a bit slower than an ITA 240SX. Of course this is on toyo's with 944 and V710's on the 240SX. Point is that I think 2650lbs sub 140 rwhp 944 would be good match for the 240SX. Putting the car in ITA at 2750 is ok, but the problem is gettign 155 whp is not easy to get and most cars would get run over anyway. So nobody would build it when insead they can run it in places were a 2650lbs 135 whp car is competitive.

[JeffYoung]

That's a good thought but the only way to limit power is an SIR, and we've been down that road before..what a mess.

I'm still not sure I see this car as an A car but if it goes to A it has to go at a weight based on its power potential, not what is easy to get.

[944-spec#94]

...but if it goes to A it has to go at a weight based on its power potential, not what is easy to get.
[/b]

I agree. There in lies the problem however for anybody looking to build 944 for IT racing. No matter the class or weight it needs a "155 whp" motor to be competitive. That costs big money and most would rather race their 944 somewhere else or build another car that is easier to achieve IT target hp.

My 944 could meet the min weight for ITS and if went through the rules line, by line I could probably ensure I comply with not that much work and little loss of speed. However I can't justify the expense of max IT motor. Failing to get one relegates me to back marker so it is more fun to race in group were all the cars have similar motors and hp levels to mine. If I really want to race ITS (or ITA) I'd be looking at at different car.

[JeffYoung]

I understand, but that is a problem all cars face -- a full blow, max out build motor/suspension/etc. is going to cost dollars. A Milledge 944 motor is not cheap, but neither is a Sunbelt Z motor. Hell, a Race Engineering SPEC MIATA motor will set you back $6-7k these days.

So again, if the high cost of building a full prep model is what drives people away from SCCA in their 944, not sure there is much that can be done about that. It's true of all other cars, it's just that most other cars don't have a viable alternative series like 944 Cup to run in.

I would also suggest that where the 944 is harder to build a motor for, it is probably less expensive to max out suspension, brakes and handling.

All cars have pluses and minuses. A minus for the 944 is the cost of a 100% engine effort. However, if one really wanted to race SCCA, we aren't talking about an impossible amount of dollars. It just comes down to issues of choice, and unfortunately the car can't be classed at a particular weight just because it is hard to build the motor to make power necessary at that weight, and because as a result others will go elsewhere.

Why? Because someone WILL build the 155 whp motor at the lower weight and that wouldn't be fair to the other guys at 100% prep levels in other models at the correct process weight.

All that said, I sure would like to see more of those 944 Cup cars in ITS and A. Just don't know how to get them there in a way that doesn't hurt A or S.

[Fastfred92]

I'm still not sure I see this car as an A car but if it goes to A it has to go at a weight based on its power potential, not what is easy to get.
[/b]

Just remember Jeff, this motor does not fit the typical IT process. Much as the talk has been on the 3 rotor in ITR the 944 8v just does not give very much back using legal mods...


944 in ITA for 2007!

[Ron Earp]

Much as the talk has been on the 3 rotor in ITR t
[/b]

Where is there a three rotor in ITR? Did I miss something?

[Knestis]

Using different power factor assumptions for a SINGLE MODEL is a huge step onto the slippery slope of competition adjustments (bleah!).

K

[924Guy]

Yes, the car WILL have to be classed to be very competitive with a Milledge motor, not a home-built. Don't like it, race a Honda. That's the way IT is, it's not just 944's.

The point is, you'll be in the game, if not guaranteed a podium, with a decent (non-Milledge) motor in ITA. Currently, from what I understand, even with a Milledge motor you're struggling to stay mid-pack in ITS. Just a matter of hoping the big guys don't show up - kinda like when I raced the '24 in ITA...

[Fastfred92]

Using different power factor assumptions for a SINGLE MODEL is a huge step onto the slippery slope of competition adjustments (bleah!).

K
[/b]

But exactly what has been done up to now........

And I don't think the RX8 is in ITR but SteveE and Co. have been touting it, then saying dont apply the process to the 3 rotor the same as non rotors