944 weight reduction, any results

[924Guy]

What's the actual track record, not just in '06?

Asked a CENDIV (well, Great Lakes now) ITA racer I sit next to; his reaction - who cares? ITA lap records are still faster than ITS lap records at many CENDIV/Great Lakes tracks!

[Knestis]

ITS 01:07.960 JORGE DIAZ/ Tucson AZ SD/AZ Datsun 240Z 4/29/06
RS 01:08.023 JOE STUBBLEFIELD/ Mesa AZ AZ PORSCHE 944 04/30/06
S944 01:07.471 AZ PORSCHE 944 04/29/06SF
[/b]

Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Three different chassis, all built to the nth degree, developed completely and equally, torn down and proven legal by an independent party, driven by the same person, on the same tires, on the same day, fully data-logged to demonstrate that maximum g-loading was achieved througout each lap, with lap times repeatable to within a small enough fraction so as to be statistically identical?

Yeah.

Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

No.

More evidence that...



(Thanks to Zsolt Ferenczy for the pic)

K

[Ron Earp]

I completely agree with Kirk with a number of levels/posts. If the car gets within 75lbs it is close enough I think for the type of classing we do. We're not out to balance things to a gnat's eyelash, at least I hope we're not.

R

[Joe Harlan]

Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Three different chassis, all built to the nth degree, developed completely and equally, torn down and proven legal by an independent party, driven by the same person, on the same tires, on the same day, fully data-logged to demonstrate that maximum g-loading was achieved througout each lap, with lap times repeatable to within a small enough fraction so as to be statistically identical?

Yeah.

Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

No.

More evidence that...



(Thanks to Zsolt Ferenczy for the pic)

K
[/b]

Thank you Kirk exactly the response I was going for..........

[Andy Bettencourt]

Of course we all know that the ITAC and CRB don't use on-track results. You make it seem like the PTB are heading that way.

[Knestis]

I've put it in print for all to see in the past but here it is again - I do NOT think that the current ITAC (or at least those who are willing to work with us in these public forums) are guilty of that. I have complete faith in Andy, Jake, et al.

My belief at this point however, is that since most current IT entrants don't have the faintest idea why it's a bad thing to use on-track performance to specify cars and since the IT logjam is busted, popular opinion and/or future ITAC membership have now enabled into taking us all right into competition adjustment land (bleah).

K

[Ron Earp]

I don't think we are headed to comp adjustment land. I don't think most of the IT club members think that way either, but there are certainly some who feel that way.

The vocal minority on this thread who think the ITAC is doing comp adjustments shouldn't be misinterpreted as the majority of the IT club members. The majority of the IT members, I submit, are not reading this thread and could care less about this long twisted argument.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

But I DO care about those reading the thread because they have read the thought process of the ITAC. I can only see one or two people who think the consideration of a class change for a car that can't amke weight is in some how the end of IT.

[Joe Harlan]

I don't think we are headed to comp adjustment land. I don't think most of the IT club members think that way either, but there are certainly some who feel that way.

The vocal minority on this thread who think the ITAC is doing comp adjustments shouldn't be misinterpreted as the majority of the IT club members. The majority of the IT members, I submit, are not reading this thread and could care less about this long twisted argument.[/b]

Funny with 4200 views I would venture to say somebody is reading this thread and I have also seen some opinions change likely based on further information and thought. At first even I considered it harmless to move a car like this with lots of weight and a make a super pig out of it. PCA's were deeveloped to correct big glaring mistakes and to make it easier for future ITAC's to classify new cars. PCA's were sold to the CRB and the Membership as a tool that would be used with restaint.

[Fastfred92]

I completely agree with Kirk with a number of levels/posts. If the car gets within 75lbs it is close enough I think for the type of classing we do. We're not out to balance things to a gnat's eyelash, at least I hope we're not.

R
[/b]

I thought I was done but I must respectfully disagree here...... Most cars in ITS that I have worked with or had some close association with have been able to make minimum weight with the mythical 180 lb driver without resorting to extraordinary and or illegal steps, infact most could be prepped to well below allowing for ballast to help setup. ( I personally take up much too much of that ballast but ) The ITAC and board changed the weight in 06 from 2715 to 2575 after applying the process. Now you say that within 75lbs is close enough and I know many cars compete above their minimum but 75lbs as a tolerance is crazy.
If I roll across the scales at VIR this spring 75lbs light is that OK? If a car does not have a reasonable chance to make its weight then it should be looked at in the next class, simple enough. 75lbs is more than half the reduction the board gave this car, what would RX7 drivers say if we added 75lbs to their process weight because it is close enough? ( uproar ) If people are hellbent on keeping the 944 in S maybe we add 75 to all the others that make weight ( just as ridiculous as saying 75 is close enough )

[Ron Earp]

Sorry, I'm not being exact.

What I was trying to say is that I don't think the process can spec a car down to 50-75lbs In fact, use 50lbs because you are right, 75lbs is too large a difference. The process is probably good to a 50lb resolution I think and what I was trying to say is that if we're within 50lbs of the spec weight for the cars racing, then that is probably about as close as the process can bring us.

Do you think the process has a resolution that is smaller than 50lbs? Sorry, don't need to take this off track. Continue on with ITA 944 debate.

R

[lateapex911]

. PCA's were sold to the CRB and the Membership as a tool that would be used with restaint. [/b]

Well, I just reread the edict in the GCR, and there is considerable latitude for changes of exactly this nature. Now, it does have a clause that (for vehicles clasified for more than 4 years) that, "On rare occasions.." additional changes can be made.

So, thats the qualifier..."On rare occasions"

Also, remember that if the ITAC were to go nuts and decide to move the car to A, at say 2630 (which would match the Nissans WHP figure, as they are both the same), the CRB still needs to approve of the change. As the process is known internally, and since they are on the con calls, its not likely that such a move will be approved.

In other words, there are checks and balances in the system.

Now, if you feel that the wording is incorrrect, or that there aren't enough restrictions on the ITAC, that we could be acting without, as yo say, "restraint", or that the policy isn't clear enough and could morph into something else down the road, feel free to write in and make a request to change the wording.

[944-spec#94]

ITS 01:07.960 JORGE DIAZ/ Tucson AZ SD/AZ Datsun 240Z 4/29/06
RS 01:08.023 JOE STUBBLEFIELD/ Mesa AZ AZ PORSCHE 944 04/30/06
S944 01:07.471 AZ PORSCHE 944 04/29/06SF

Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

[/b]

Well
I can tell you about 2 of those cars in the 3 track records listed above

The RS & S944 records are done by similar cars. The RS 944 is a S944 that I believe ran on test tires. S944 can run on any tire, but limited in size. They are good solid records from good drivers in top cars (for the S944 class). However S944 cars are 2625lbs with sub 140 rwhp. There is lots of competition which breeds great driving.

As for the ITS record.... The ITS field in Az consists of 2-3 cars per weekend. So you can't say that car is a a 100% car. Could be, but probably not. ITA is also not well supported in Az so that is tough to trust.

Really and IT track record in Az needs tobe taking with grain of salt since IT fields are really small.

So these rules do not support a change nor do they show evidence about NOT making a change. They are infact irrelevant.

[Andy Bettencourt]

To follow up on my previous post:

The people on here are the most informed about IT in the country. They are informed about many issues, good and bad. Peoples outlook on rules, cars and interpretations.

If you could see some of the hate mail we received from some members after the Feb 'correction' when all cars went through the process, you would see that they all came from people who do not come here and see how things work.

This site is incredably valuable to all of us and whether we agree or not, to be informed is power. This may e the vast minority of IT racers, but we are by far the group with the most information from which to form our opinions. And those opinions I value highly.

[JeffYoung]

In Stockholm with several beers in me, so a bit off topic, but I want to echo and support Andy's post.

This is THE best place to discuss IT issues. Way better than the paddock. Sometimes I laugh at the effort expended here on policy issues related to our "grand hobby" but honestly, it is just a reflection of the passion we all have. I told Joe one time he was a pompous ass for the way he expressed his opinions here -- and I am proud to say it has become his new signature line -- but the fact is the passion we all have for this silly stupid time consuming relationship wrecking expensive "hobby" is what drives the heated, but for the most part informed and quite "smart" discussions on this board.

No, I don't think the 944 should go to ITA. I think if someone can get the car close to its process weight. But you know what? If it does go, I know it will have gone after a HEALTHY and LENGTHY debate of almost all pros and cons of the move.

As I swig the last of my "Spendrups" lager, which is awful by the way, I adopt the Bud Light cliche and say, "I love you man" meaning this website serves an extremely useful and necessary purpose for IT racing by bringing us together. Without it, I doubt the important and necessary changes we have seen over the last 2-3 years would have happened.

Back to find Alexandra at the Viking Sky Bar...........

[Fastfred92]

In Stockholm with several beers in me

Back to find Alexandra at the Viking Sky Bar...........
[/b]

Rough life man

[Knestis]

Well, JEFF isn't going to be of any further use here for a while...

Give Alexandra my best, Jeff...

K

[Fastfred92]

Jet set people like Jeff belong in production, not IT

[lateapex911]

I LOVE it! Jeff, this thread is NOTHING without pictures!!! Post some pics of you and whoever, LOL.

I echo the comments about the site. I KNOW that without this site, the IT world would NOT be the same as it is, and I think that IT is in a much better place now than it was 3 years ago. So HUGE and hearty props to our webmaster, who is semi secretive about his ID, so I won't name him. But he is a GREAT guy, and you should support him when he asks, in whatever way you can.

I did notice, the line in Joes sig, and chuckled when I saw it, because I knew it was in response to Jeffs comment. Also, I remember when Bill Miller came around and actually said positive things about the ITAC at one point after the "Miller Ice Age of ITAC Discontent" ebbed a bit, and I said something to the effect of "Would you look at that...Miller has some praise for us! Wow...pigs must be flying over New Jersey!" And lo and behold, Millers new avatar is....yup, a flying pig. Nicely done, BTW, Bill.

All in all, even when we discuss issues we, for the most part, do it with respect and civility, with the exception of the trolls like harry ballsack, who eventually go away, bored that we continue to debate, rather than just fall into an all out name besmerching contest.

As a guy on the ITAC, I really enjoy reading what is written here, as there are some very sharp minds who post here. It is also surprising to read some of the letters sent to us, that mention IT.com, but from people who never post. The eyes are watching. And as Andy points out, it also amazes me when we get letters like we did after the Feb adendum was released, by big time frontrunners who have posted here, but paid so little attention (and didn't read fastrak either) that they were completely surprised by the entire PCA thing. Wow...thats some kind of out of touch, LOL.

[Ron Earp]

As a guy on the ITAC, I really enjoy reading what is written here, as there are some very sharp minds who post here. It is also surprising to read some of the letters sent to us, that mention IT.com, but from people who never post. The eyes are watching. And as Andy points out, it also amazes me when we get letters like we did after the Feb adendum was released, by big time frontrunners who have posted here, but paid so little attention (and didn't read fastrak either) that they were completely surprised by the entire PCA thing. Wow...thats some kind of out of touch, LOL.
[/b]

As a regular guy who just enjoys to read and trying to "get his race on", I appreciate the ITAC participating in the forum. It is a great place (read IT.com? donate lately?) and a fantastic resource. I don't know how many racing organizations/classes have this sort of ability to interact with the folks making the decisions for the class as a whole. Good stuff.

BTW - as I write this I'm in Hawaii, trying to find out what hammock I'll spend my day in, and what drink I might have whilst enjoying my book!

R