944 weight reduction, any results

[Fastfred92]

So 2650 with the average SCCA driver. That looks like 75 lbs to get to 2575. Looks doable. How much does the rubber spoiler weigh? + the undercoat that you say is still there. like about 40 net loss with 8 gal cell maybe another 25 lbs in stripping and repaint from bare metal 5 lbs in the fire bottle. Windows still in the doors?

Whats your exhaust like? Lot of weight is missed in the exhaust. You getting my point. It won't be easy but the weight is there. You are right your not gonna get it 20lbs at a time but it can be found.
[/b]

First Happy new year Joe and all.....

Second, come on Joe, be reasonable! looks to me like 924guy is running a 924 which is 100 lbs lighter than a 944 to start with, he is got a pretty minimum cage ( would need nascar bars to lose door glass= net wash ), running a stock tank which is pretty light and 15" cookie cutters are very light!( good luck finding some light weight 5x130 wheels ) Yea he could do away with 5 lbs of guages and maybe another few pounds here and there but if it is indeed a 924 we are still talking another 150 lbs to go... How many other cars classed in IT need World Challenge level of dipping and stripping just to get to class weight with the therotical 180 lbs driver, much less room for stuff like ballast?

BTW I would want more cage in my car and I am not sure if you can legally remove the rear spoiler because it is part of the rear hatch glass

[Joe Harlan]

First Happy new year Joe and all.....

Second, come on Joe, be reasonable! looks to me like 924guy is running a 924 which is 100 lbs lighter than a 944 to start with, he is got a pretty minimum cage ( would need nascar bars to lose door glass= net wash ), running a stock tank which is pretty light and 15" cookie cutters are very light!( good luck finding some light weight 5x130 wheels ) Yea he could do away with 5 lbs of guages and maybe another few pounds here and there but if it is indeed a 924 we are still talking another 150 lbs to go... How many other cars classed in IT need World Challenge level of dipping and stripping just to get to class weight with the therotical 180 lbs driver, much less room for stuff like ballast?

BTW I would want more cage in my car and I am not sure if you can legally remove the rear spoiler because it is part of the rear hatch glass
[/b]

If I rember correctly the 924 was pretty sparse in creature comforts compared to the porky 944 and i would venture to say in raw tub form they are pretty close in weight. The argument that it won't be easy is not a good argument, there are plenty of other cars out there that aren't easy to get weight out of but the front runners are doing it. This is exactly why I oppose this move because it looks like we are more concerned with easy rather than proper. not all cars are gonna be easy to get competitive 240sx S14 is one example. It's not an easy car to get down to weight but people are trying their collective butts off to do it. As far as wheels go that's the great thing today, you can have a wheel custom built for about anything.

Again Fred Happy new year.
edit: from the spec 944 website

Basic 944-spec modifications include upgrades to springs, torsion bars, sway bars and removal of most interior components. Minimum class weight is 2600 lbs with driver and represents a 350 to 500 lbs reduction from stock weight. This weight reduction is achieved without the need to swap steel body panels for fiberglass or to replace any window glass thus minimizing build cost. Engines are mostly stock with only few minor changes allowed. See the 944-spec rules page for complete listing of rules.[/b]

Kinda interesting that these guys are getting it done?

[924Guy]

No, my 924 was a late one, same creature comforts (power windows, mirrors, AC, etc) as the 944... but lighter engine (as I noted previously, direct from the factory manuals).

Yes, IMO the doors would be a wash due to the extra steel; same with the fuel cell, due to the extra steel required to mount it. Yes, the cage is minimal. 5 lbs gauges? Where do you think I bought those gauges, Jegs???

You want me to ditch my firebottle? Probably my H+N restraint is extra unnecessary weight too, eh?

I don't seem to recall anywhere in the rules that you're allowed to remove a spoiler that was standard, but it definitely would slow you down (due to increased drag).

My exhaust? 2.5" stainless straight pipe with a couple of race bullet mufflers - barely makes sound, quite light (with header, OF COURSE).

Definitely not 40lbs of undercoating, or 20, still there. You did look at the pics, right? You didn't read my previous posts.

I'm also running 15x6 rims, since of course I'm in ITB - another weight savings.

Are they getting 2600# done in 944Spec? If they are, yes, that is interesting.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sorry Joe, gotta blow you up on this one. I asked the NASA guys - and the ones who understood SCCA rules vs. NASA rules said no.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12669

Add to that, the S944 guys can remove more stuff. (Lighter batteries, heater core and blower motor)

And as to your comment about full comp adjustments - BS. This has absolutley ZERO to do with on-track results. The process as a whole has nothing to do with on-track results too.

All we are doing is evaluating the 'process' weight in S and in A. I don't see any evidence that it's a comp adjustment...EVERY car in the GCR should have a chance to 'exist' on track as the process says it should in order to be inside the performance envelope of the class designation on the side of the car. The CRB won't guarantee that a car can win, but it SHOULD guarantee that it can live in the same zip code as it's competitors. If SCCA calssing does make sense, people will leave.

Everyone here seems to understand the goal and the 'fairness' of this thought process except for you.

[Joe Harlan]

No, my 924 was a late one, same creature comforts (power windows, mirrors, AC, etc) as the 944... but lighter engine (as I noted previously, direct from the factory manuals).

Yes, IMO the doors would be a wash due to the extra steel; same with the fuel cell, due to the extra steel required to mount it. Yes, the cage is minimal. 5 lbs gauges? Where do you think I bought those gauges, Jegs???

You want me to ditch my firebottle? Probably my H+N restraint is extra unnecessary weight too, eh?

I don't seem to recall anywhere in the rules that you're allowed to remove a spoiler that was standard, but it definitely would slow you down (due to increased drag).

My exhaust? 2.5" stainless straight pipe with a couple of race bullet mufflers - barely makes sound, quite light (with header, OF COURSE).

Definitely not 40lbs of undercoating, or 20, still there. You did look at the pics, right? You didn't read my previous posts.

I'm also running 15x6 rims, since of course I'm in ITB - another weight savings.
Are they getting 2600# done in 944Spec? If they are, yes, that is interesting.
[/b]

Well WTH are we even discussing your car for then? I did,'t say ditch your bottle I said you could loose 5 lbs in the bottle. I may be wrong but that looks like a 10lb pheonix system. Second I have installed enough fuel cells in enough different cars that I can say you will end up with a net loss. Gutting the doors will also net a loss. Point being you asked me what it would take to convince me. It will take a higher level of prep than you have presented so far. No offense but there is probably another 10lbs in hollow custom sway bars. Show me a fully prepped ITS example not an ITB car. Again Sorry I am not going to waste anymore time on this kinda argument. As I stated before the process is being used in a different method on this car and a prime example car has not been used to prove they can't make weight. At least 2 or 3 other sanctioning bodies use 2600 as a minimum weight in basic IT trim so there must be some proof they can get there.

Have fun y'all

[924Guy]

Because it's a comparison point that I'm willing to disclose fully and both discuss and document all details. Chris C. hasn't has much to add to this discussion - no slam against him. But everyone who knows the 924 and 944 knows the cars ARE close enough for comparisons to be drawn.

The points you are bringing up are 5 lbs here, 2 lbs there. Not more than 50lbs total - and you need to find 150lbs. You're not finding it.

To details: yes, that's a 10lb Phoenix system. Fuel cell - that's more than I have installed - how many pounds, exactly? Same on doors.

Hollow sway bars - again, you've proven my point about how you take our clumsiness for granted. I'm running hollow 34mm t-bars, and they weigh no more or less than my old 30mm t-bars.

You've still failed to make your point.

[Joe Harlan]

Sorry Joe, gotta blow you up on this one. I asked the NASA guys - and the ones who understood SCCA rules vs. NASA rules said no.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12669

Add to that, the S944 guys can remove more stuff. (Lighter batteries, heater core and blower motor)

And as to your comment about full comp adjustments - BS. This has absolutley ZERO to do with on-track results. The process as a whole has nothing to do with on-track results too.

All we are doing is evaluating the 'process' weight in S and in A. I don't see any evidence that it's a comp adjustment...EVERY car in the GCR should have a chance to 'exist' on track as the process says it should in order to be inside the performance envelope of the class designation on the side of the car. The CRB won't guarantee that a car can win, but it SHOULD guarantee that it can live in the same zip code as it's competitors. If SCCA calssing does make sense, people will leave.

Everyone here seems to understand the goal and the 'fairness' of this thought process except for you.
[/b]

No Andy there is more than just me, It that other feel your mind is already made and comp adjustments will become the norm.

Edit: Andy you crack me up....2 guys within 25lbs and one guy says no way. You have no idea what the prep level on any of those cars are.....If we are gonna use that kind of data then the system is clearly inb trouble. Unreal my friend.

Oh and the guy that says no way runs a 944 rental program heres a photo of his car.


I think that passenger seat and the phone dial wheels could be some weight, how much other stuff is still there.

Vaughn, Sorry dude but you have made the case, you are 75lbs off the ITS weight using your car as a data point and just with the photos you provided I can see where to get real close if not adding balast when done. won't be cheap and it won't be easy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Joe,

We are so far form having enough data it's scary. They are all data points. Good data, bad data, just data. Don't worry about the decision.

Comp adjustments have to do with on-track. Can't help you if you are stuck on this.

This issue is so simple and you are making it a huge deal - it isn't. This CONSIDERATION would be given to any car in this situation - and if you think it's a CA, you would be wrong. I haven't heard from anyone else who thinks teh sky is falling because the ITAC/CRb wants to use known information to avoid overdog issues.

[ryoji]

Are they getting 2600# done in 944Spec? If they are, yes, that is interesting.
[/b]

944 spec allows you to remove almost everything not related to race, like heater core, windows and its mechanizm, unused elec. wires, head lights, side panels, non-race related elec. motors, etc.

[924Guy]

Ryoji - do you mean 944 Spec or 944 Cup? That sounds like 944 Cup to me. I don't see any specific comments in the 944Spec rules that allow you to do any non-IT legal mods for weight reduction.

Andy, Joe - You both should be aware that not only does Tim C. rent a car - he also is ihs Regional Series Director and was instrumental in creating the 944Spec class. He has no desire to help clarify the situation for ITS racers - see my previous obscenely long post about attitudes and philosophies of other 944 racers. No slam against him, but obviously he's promoting what's in his best interest. NASA racing is run as a business, not a club; they don't want competition for racers, and would rather nab up the whole field. BTDT - again, see my previous post for qualifications. (I can also tell he's talking quite a bit tongue-in-check with his comments there in that thread - it'd be hard to not notice, in fact).

And, frankly, the Spec and Cup series are gonna be hard to beat for appeal to a 944 racer - the rules are designed explicitly for them. As I've said before, it's probably not a reasonable expectation to think that you're either going to take weight off the ITS car or drop it to ITA - even at the same weight! - and suck up a whole bunch of those racers.

I got a crazy thought - what about the original question of this thread?

HAVE ANY ITS 944'S MADE ANY PROGRESS IN ACTUAL RACE RESULTS IN ITS AFTER REMOVING ANY WEIGHT??? How light have they gotten? I think I may be the only one here who's actually disclosed his car weight...

[ryoji]

That is 944spec.

(The Cup does not allow much extra for the car selecting SCCA rule set...does not need much since the Cup's minimum weight for SCCA rule set car is 2800.)

I was almost buying a ready spec car, and listing parts missing to run in SCCA or the Cup, and decided not to, since there are too many items were missing. In addition, they allow to have welded A and B pillars, up to 10 mounting points to compensate minimum cage structure.

The below is the instruction posted by the director of 944spec on another forum.

He is preparing the car to 944 spec (SP1 rules) so there are number things he CAN'T do.

1) Mirrors must be stock on the outside. IE full flag mirrors, inside can be anything
2) Body panels must remain steel
3) Bumpers must be stock
4) No lexan allow in windshield, rear hatch or qtr windows.
5) Cutting away large bits of the metal shell is really frowned upon (don't do it)
6) Stock gauges must remain.

What he can remove
1) Everything that is bolted down and is not needed to operate the car
2) All coatings both inside the car and under the car
3) The 40lbs of heat shielding between the engine and firewall.
4) A/C and all parts
5) heater and all associated parts
6) Body mouldings including front & rear bumper pads
7) powersteering and all related parts
8) Door glass and all related parts. (Please keep the stock door bar for safety)
9) Lightweight battery (instock location only)
10) Any bits of wire harness that was used for removad components
11) All misc brackets used to support removed parts
12) Windshield wipers, motors & linkages (BTW... you can races safely with just a driver's side wiper)
13) All headliner and or sunroof parts (must fix in place stock roof panel)
14) rear hatch motor and related parts (use key to open rear hatch)
15) hood and hatch lift shocks
16) Replace heavy cast iron headers with ligher stock tube headers
17) Cat replaced with Test pipe
18) Replace muffer with straight pipe (must meet local sound limits however)
19) Driver's seat only with Aluminum Side rails
20) 1.75 x .095 DOM custom cage with close eye paid to not "jungle gym" the car with 500 tubes.
21) "Late 944" smaller lighter starter motor.[/b]

[944-spec#94]

Are they getting 2600# done in 944Spec? If they are, yes, that is interesting.
[/b]

Yes we are getting 2600lbs in 944 spec.

here is how.... Not sure all that is legal to remove in IT. Also some chassis just seem to be quite heavy. Not sure why, but they stuggle to get to 2600lbs. Most can get close at least. Royj added most of the text about what a 944 spec can car remove to get to weight, but I have added in a few more details.


If you can remove all the things we can in 944 spec then 2675 is achieveable to some guys. Bigger guys in later chassis will cry foul. (They already do at 2600lbs). Still I think 2600lbs is far for our class. Reason? Some guys add a little weight other need to eat a few less doughnuts. Seems fair if you piss of both ends of scale.


Now if you can't remove all that the 944 spec car is allowed to remove then getting to 2575 is going to very hard. I might be possible, but most cars will be 50-75lbs over weight (2625-2650). I think the ideal weight for 944 in IT trim is about 2630-2650. Best weight considering what can and can't be removed. However this weight is really inbetween what is needed for ITA or ITS.


--------------------------

With respect to some weight numbers and what can be achieved.

my Chassis is an 84. This past racing weekend I went over the scales with 40lbs of ballast and low fuel (but still 2 gallons in the tank) 2633 was the number both days. I am about 165 with full gear. My class min is 2600lbs

Below is complitation of a few things told another racer looking to lose weight in his 944 (his target was a 200lbs driver and 2550lbs min which would be strech in my mind). This applies to 944 spec rules so you can see what of the kind of things we allow that IT may not. Hopefully it will help with the discussion on the ability for a 944 to get to 2575lbs in IT trim.

----
I figure I can do the following in my car to cut some more weight . (from 2633 my 155 weight)
1) Remove 40 lbs of ballast -40 => 2593 lbs
2) Light weight batter vs stock - 15 lbs => 2577lbs
3) Remove door glass & door panels (motors & arms gone already) - 15 lbs => 2562 lbs (I would probably stop here since would be close to min and like have the pass seat for rides.
4) Remove pass seat & heavy mounting -15 => 2547lbs
5) Tackle remaining interior goop - 5lbs => 2542lbs
6) Remaing emissions crap in engine - 1lbs => 2541lbs
7) fresh air blower motor and heater box - 6lbs => 2535lbs
8) Aluminum mount bar for my turbo oil cooler vs steel - 1lbs => 2534lbs
9) After this I would just start looking alot more closely at everything. I am pretty sure I could take away 5-10lbs more lbs if I had time to really study it more. Given I add ballast now I have given up the search for more weight reduction.

[924Guy]

Undestood, and thanks for the response; I'm in exactly the same position, both with ballast and actual weight, though I've stripped my car a bit more than you have. If nothing else, it would seem that the early cars are on the same footing as a 924 WRT weight - actually surprising, given the extra engine weight. May be helpful for comparison purposes also to point out that SCCA uses a standard driver weight of 180lbs, so the ITS car must get down to 2575-180 = 2395(!) in order to really cut it. As Joe (H) has pointed out - yeah, I could do this to my 924 if I needed.

The only things I see on the above lists that are definitely not IT-legal are lightweight battery, heater core removal (though they're reasonably light when empty), wiring harness, and windshield wipers/motor/linkage. That's on the order of 50lbs or less. Furthermore I'm uncertain about the hatch and sunroof motors - and that's a substantial chunk of weight, maybe 20lbs. The headlights, that'd be another chunk of substantial weight - possibly as much as 25lbs, with those big glass bulbs? Of course I'm looking at the 944Spec rules with the IT-standard rule perspective - If It Doesn't Say You Can You Can't (IIDSYCYC).

So between the above observations and comparisons - we're still coming up at 50-100 lbs short of the goal, to say nothing of fat drivers.

Hmmm...

[944-spec#94]

944 spec rules philosphy is when it comes to weight reduction.


"If you can unbolt it, scrap it off, is non metal and can cut it off, and the car is still safe to run and operate in racing environment and it does not look like crappy hack job... remove it."

So for this reason we don't list what you can remove, but more what you can't remove or replace.

[Joe Harlan]

Thanks for the info Joe.

I took this this morning at the hospitol..I guess the spoiler was an option.

[attachmentid=755]

[944-spec#94]

Thanks for the info Joe.

I took this this morning at the hospitol..I guess the spoiler was an option.

[attachmentid=755]
[/b]

That is a 924 (2.0L IT. Only some of them came with spoilers. All 944 had spoilers. The 924S has a smaller spoiler than a 944, but looks similar.

[lateapex911]

An option?? On a 944?

But hey, "I guess" is close enough...everybody yank their spoilers to make weight...!

OK, a little humor there, but you can see the point. If, on one hand, you say, "What the hell" (are we even discussig this for) when you discover that Vaughans car is a 924, then how can you post a pic of a 924 and make the point that the spoiler is an option....on a 944??? Seem a little double standard? Answer carefully......

And all this talk about "not having a single car to prove it can't make weight"....is silly. Really...we have done the math up the thread, and if we were paying attention, we'd know it was comparing a 924 to a 944, and the differences were posted. So Vaughans car is relevant. Not to mention, we can do some simple math. Undercoating left over from a tub strip? He described the area. We're talking 7 pounds. Wheels? Well, I guess we can commision OZ to pop out a set of CF wheels that'll weigh 8 -9 pounds, saving about 12. And yes, it looks like there are some guage bits in there still, so thats 3 more pounds. A cel? Thats nearly a wash, but lets be generous and say 10.

So, that adds up to....29. Now, add the non removable 944 stuff, and we're back up to 75 -100 pounds heavy.

As for the "Competition adjustment" comment...stop, wrong track, back that train up. Calling BS on that.

[Joe Harlan]

An option?? On a 944?

But hey, "I guess" is close enough...everybody yank their spoilers to make weight...!

OK, a little humor there, but you can see the point. If, on one hand, you say, "What the hell" (are we even discussig this for) when you discover that Vaughans car is a 924, then how can you post a pic of a 924 and make the point that the spoiler is an option....on a 944??? Seem a little double standard? Answer carefully......

And all this talk about "not having a single car to prove it can't make weight"....is silly. Really...we have done the math up the thread, and if we were paying attention, we'd know it was comparing a 924 to a 944, and the differences were posted. So Vaughans car is relevant. Not to mention, we can do some simple math. Undercoating left over from a tub strip? He described the area. We're talking 7 pounds. Wheels? Well, I guess we can commision OZ to pop out a set of CF wheels that'll weigh 8 -9 pounds, saving about 12. And yes, it looks like there are some guage bits in there still, so thats 3 more pounds. A cel? Thats nearly a wash, but lets be generous and say 10.

So, that adds up to....29. Now, add the non removable 944 stuff, and we're back up to 75 -100 pounds heavy.

As for the "Competition adjustment" comment...stop, wrong track, back that train up. Calling BS on that.
[/b]

Jake note the word Guess....Had I known for a fact I would have said so. Next moving the 944 is a comp adjustment and nothing more if you leave all the other cars in ITS that are faced with a hard road to get to minimum weight.

[lateapex911]

"All the other cars.."??? [/b]

The ITAC would love to hear about these cars and see the math. If they are in the same situation, they will get the same due consideration.

Again, the process is math....if one of the inputs is wrong, the outcome has to be as well. If the ITAC screwed up and created a non acheivable situation, then it needs to be looked at. Seems simple to me.

As for HP targets and asumptions, if the ITAC had reputable numbers for every car listed, we wouldn't need estimations. But where we DO have reputable numbers, we give them consideration. Where we do use estimations, those estimations are based on the type and properties of the engine in question. Any "across the board estimates" won't cut it.

This isn't model specific, per se, but is more related to general characteristics of the case in question. Certain manufacturers can run afoul of such a process though, as the base process assumes certain "averages". "Average exhaust manifolds", for example....if the car comes from the factory optimized in this area, as some manufacturers do, then the process will fail them as it assumes gians from this key area. While it might seem a like model specific "adjustment". it's not, as any case with optimized layouts would be given the same consideration.

And as for the "No guaranteed competitveness" clause, how COULD there be any guarantee of competiveness?? We'd be FOOLs to guarantee such a thing.

But it doesn't mean we can't TRY to do a good job where we know the numbers and the issue.

[Banzai240]

Add to that, the S944 guys can remove more stuff. (Lighter batteries, heater core and blower motor)

[/b]

Just a simple question... If the Spec 944 rules allow more things to be removed... what are the chances that these guys would actually try to gather all these things back up, replace their "safer" lower control arms with stock, IT-legal control arms, etc., to make these cars IT legal again and go race against Neons, Integras, and Sentras in ITA??? How many ITA/ITS legal 944s are really out there to bring into the SCCA?

The questions around classifying this car are based on HP figures given from ONE SINGLE engine builder, who supposedly builds the "best" Porsche engines for the 944... a big 2-valve, 2.5L, oversquare motor with good torque and RPMs, in a chassis that is 50/50 from the factory with HUGE brakes, and excellent handling... good aero too... Supposedly "cam" limited... (what IT car ISN'T "cam-limited"???)

If this car isn't competitive in ITS currently, it's for one of a several reasons... Either no one has given one a full-tilt effort... or one who has given a full-tilt prep effort can't drive full-tilt... or the top of ITS is still too high up there and needs further adjustment to bring it back in line...

Maybe it's an East-Coast thing, because here on the West Coast, at thier OLD 2715lbs weight, they weren't that far off the mark of a Rebello or Top-Tech powered, full-tilt, well-driven 240Z...