Jeckyll Secret Meeting

[Mattberg]

So what did happen in that meeting? My bet is that they whitewashed the FLorida officials and then carried out their plan once they put those concerned at rest that it wasn't going to happen. I never should have laid off the issue. THe result less than nine months later is the following:

From CFR:

"Considering the unwanted influence from the northern portion of SEDiv, CFR and the Florida Region have agreed to evaluate changing the competition boundaries between areas 3 and 12. This would be similar to the CENDiv split last year. This would have a profound effect on SCCA in the South East. In moving forward on this issue, I have spoken to both of the SCCA Area Directors who were directly involved with this decision. This is one very big step, with lots of consequences, so, please be sure to let me know how you feel about this very important issue. "

I guess I'm still Chicken Little? So for all you members of the "SCCA officials can do no wrong" club and continue to feel that they have racers' best interests in mind, think again and think about what effect the loss of FL and CFR regions will have on the division. And get out that fork and start eating that crow. You'll also notice that there is a nice even distribution of SARRC races over four divisions with no competition from Florida just like Alabama and Buccaneer wanted. Exactly how I laid it out to you. What happened Butch? You told me I was wrong. Doesn't look like it. Looks like you just turned the Daytona double SARRC into a non-event. Love to hear what Butch has to say.

Nice job Barry, you fooled a lot of people but since they proved they weren't so smart I can't give you too much credit. I will give you credit for destroying racing the SEDIV. That will be your legacy. All so you can support your autocrossing region. "Racer's take your mark.... BEND OVER!"

Oh yea. The lying NC RE who aligned with Barry and threw the secret shindig is in for a rude awakeing. Not only will you see less racers without Florida involved you're not going to get a soul to come to that crap National at Kershaw. You screwed your region, but hey... I warned you. Instead you jumped on the bandwagon of a non-racing autocross region from Alabama trying to be racing region using a track in South Carolina and represented by an ambulance chasing lawyer. Nice choice. And good luck getting Florida workers out of state. THat's going to be one helluva' challenge considering how you went about doing it.

On the bright side... the division will be polarized and Florida will be not only pissed but poised to step up. I expect some great racing support in the state of Florida the next few years as they not only support Florida but boycott those who tried to force them to attend their races.

FLORIDA RACERS AND WORKERS: BOYCOTT ALL ALABAMA AND BUCCANEER RACES! Show greedy regional official they can't force us go where they want us to go! GO FLORIDA!

[JamesB]

Talk about beating a dead rotten horse.

[Mattberg]

Unfortunately it wasn't a dead horse, just a opossum.

Too late now though. THe damage has been done so perhaps it is a dead horse. Should never have come to this but that's what happens when everyone shuts their eyes and ears and ignores reality. Tell me how you feel when your races start looking like those out in the RMDIV. Yet another stupid loss for the SCCA created out of ego driven personal needs and a win for every competing organization out there, especially those in the Sunshine State. :P

[RacerBowie]

Too bad there isn't an "ignore thread" option on this board.

I'll just have to skip over it for weeks every time I check on things here. Morbid curiosity made me click it today, but I have learned my lesson.

[Butch Kummer]

1. It IS true there has long been friction between the northern and southern portions of SEDIV. Various members of CFR (and perhaps Florida Region) have threatened to secede from SEDIV (and SCCA) at various times in the past, much as CalClub has often threatened to remove themselves as well. This friction has been going on for decades and was not fomented by Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett or any other currently seated RE.

2. It IS true that CFR moved their SARRC sanction from the Turkey Trot in 2006 to their October 2006 event.

3. It is ALSO true that CFR dropped SARRC sanction of the August Double event at Daytona and moved it to their June event at Sebring.

4. Finally, CFR will still have the allowed four (4) SARRC events in the 2007 SARRC season - Oct. 2006, Feb. 2007, then the Double in June 2007 - all of which will be at Sebring.

All of this complies with the SARRC rules regarding number of sanctions (which did not change at any meeting, secret or otherwise) and is an action by the CFR Board, not the SEDIV RE's. Since I'm not a member of CFR or Florida Region and do not attend their Board meetings, I can only surmise what may be going on:

The Turkey Trot and the Daytona Double are among the most popular events on the SEDIV calendar. As such, the time schedules for those weekends are very compressed and adding the SARRC sanction adds "unwanted influence" that could be removed if those are no longer SARRC events. The Board probably figured people are going to show up for those events regardless of whether they earn SARRC points or not (I'd also guess most racers in Florida don't really care all that much about SARRC points anyway - but that's not the point), so why not transfer the SARRC sanctions to less popular events and maybe get a few snowbirds (i.e. - those from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas that DO care about SARRC points) to come to those events. And those events, because they have fewer participants, also allow the organizers more flexibility in adhering to the "unwanted influence" of the SARRC rules (mainly those regarding race length and scheduling).

And if I read the message correctly, the two regions have agreed to "evaluate" splitting up SEDIV just as the National BOD voted to "evaluate" selling off Enterprises earlier this year. There are certainly benefits in doing so, and it would be wrong to not weigh those benefits against the negatives. I'd have to think about it for awhile myself, and I'd also want to see how things work out in the CENDIV split over the next couple of years. It could be a good thing for racers in Florida - you get more National events and don't have to travel nearly as far to get in the two OOD races that you're allowed each year. As far as SARRC, there's been discussion in the past about creating North & South winners and then having a winner-take-all event at the end of the season. Since there's little crossover between the two areas now, I'd say there would be very little drop off in participation and making the SIC a Runoffs-type event would CERTAINLY increase attendance at that event.

Did I mention that nothing was changed in the SARRC rules? If anything, I'd guess this is a result of the SEDIV RE's voting to not change the IT-7 and SM spec tire rules at the (open) Mid-Year meeting, not because they felt a spec tire is a good thing but because there appeared to be no consensus about what the drivers wanted. One thing that DID come out of the Mid-Year meeting (and it was introduced by Martin Bartlett of CCR) were guidelines for just how any surveys requesting input on such items should be conducted. The majority of the RE's are not in favor of a spec tire, they just don't want to change something without a verifiable agreement that's what the racers want.

Bottom line?

I predict the Daytona Double and the Turkey Trot will continue to be destination events on the SCCA calendar even without counting for SARRC points and the "new" SARRC events will see an increase in participation. And if Daytona and the Trot DO experience a massive dip in attendance,the CFR can always make them SARRC events in the future.

As far as splitting up SEDIV into two divisions, I have no prediction because I haven't evaluated all the ramifications yet. Either way it goes, there will be NO reduction in the number of races available in the state of Florida.

And until I talk to John Zuccarelli (Florida Region RE) and Rick Balderson (CFR RE), that's all I have to say on the subject.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled ravings...

Well maybe I DO have one more thing to say: SARRC stands for South Atlantic Road Racing Championship, not SEDIV Road Racing Championship. Much as the NARRC series encompasses three divisions, SARRC can easily accomodate two divisions instead of just one. And as I wrote above, a "winner take all" event at the end of the season (which could easily rotate among tracks) could become a MAJOR event on the calendar.

NOW I'm done.

[Mattberg]

Pretty fancy footwork there Butch...

You failed to mention that FL lost all the SARRC events I prognosticated about. Now your stating it like it was some kind of rule beforehand. Why don't you just admit that everything I said was happening, happened? I know that Atlanta Region voted against this so I won't dwell on your role. You and I both know what really happened. THe problem is everyone else doesn't. And Butch, I understand your position but let's call a spade a spade. The Florida reps showed up at Jeckyll after this secret meeting totally confident that they wouldn't be outvoted by little non-racing regions and that's EXACTLY what happened. They were rallied by Barry hair and I know this as a FACT as one of the RE's who heard from him, alerted me as to what his plans were.

What happened is this folks. THere were a couple of issues, mostly concentrated on spec tires and race schedules and competition for participants and workers. Anyway, we have a whole bunch of little regions that don't put on races and barely have any members but have full voting rights. THere's one region with something like four people in it that has as much voting rights as CFR. Ridiculous.

THese small regions wanted races and more money and less competition. They can't compete if Florida has a big race. So the plan as it has been since the original meetings was to take away the important Florida races and distribute them to the peasants hence reducing competition. Karl Marx would be proud. If you remember, I warned if that were done that Florida, which has 3/4 of all the racers and workers in the division would be totally justified in leaving with their ball. Such is now the case. In the short run it hurts everybody. In the long run, Florida will be fine and Florida racers will not have to leave the state... ever. Florida will have five top flight tracks by the end of 2008. THat qualifies them for 10 Nationals. They really don't need anybody. They did the right thing for their members even though they were willing to stick it out for the division until the deception took place. Had Alabama and Buccaneer not gotten so greedy Florida might have stuck around. I'm just waiting for the cry for workers from the Alabama region putting on a race in South Carolina hoping to get racers from North Carolina to show up. It's all quite humorous.

So you can all say good riddance to Florida, but end of the day, you'll be putting on 80 car races and putting out desparate pleas for workers. It won't be pretty. Atlanta probably suffers the most. Do you think a Florida racer is going to go 13 hours to Atlanta when there's a race in their backyard? Bring out the SPF 30. It's racing in Florida from now on!

[Butch Kummer]

You failed to mention that FL lost all the SARRC events I prognosticated about. Now your [sic] stating it like it was some kind of rule beforehand. Why don't you just admit that everything I said was happening, happened? [/b]

Sorta like watching a train wreck or the OJ trial, I find myself drawn into this despite my best efforts. If only to help out the two people in the world that give credence to Matt's rantings, please explain how the secret meeting at Jekyll (in January of 2006) affected the number of SARRC races held in Florida.

Florida SARRC races since 2005 (from the SEDIV website):

2005 season (started in Oct. 2004)

CFR hosts singles at Sebring on 11/27/04 (the Turkey Trot) and 2/27/05, then the Double at Daytona 8/6&7/05. They were also granted a fifth SARRC race (at the request of the Atlanta region) when we had to cancel our Labor Day Double at AMS that year.

Florida region hosts a single at Moroso on 10/30/04 and a Double at Moroso on 3/26&27/05. They had voluntarily given up their undersubscribed July single which allowed Alabama region to host a Double at Roebling that year. This was also done before the secret meeting at Jekyll.

Total count for 2005 = 8 SARRC races.

2006 season (started in Oct. 2005)

CFR hosts singles at Sebring on 11/29/05 (the Turkey Trot) and 2/26/06, then the Double at Daytona the first weekend in August.

Florida region hosts a Double at Moroso on 3/25&26/06 and a single at Moroso on 5/14/06.

Total count for 2006 = 7 SARRC races.

2007 season (started in Oct. 2006)

CFR hosted a single at Sebring on 10/22/06 and has scheduled a single at Sebring on 2/25/07 and a Double at Sebring on 6/2&3/07.

Florida region hosted a single at Homestead on 10/29/06 and have scheduled a single at Moroso this coming weekend (11/19/06), a Double at Moroso New Year's weekend (12/30&31/06), and a single at Moroso on 5/13/07. This is five races, but I imagine the variance from the four races allowed under the SARRC rules was approved by the SARRC Committee as compensation for giving up the July race starting in 2005.

Total count for 2007 = 9 SARRC races.

CFR has shifted their SARRC sanctions from the Turkey Trot and Daytona to other weekends at Sebring. That is a CFR decision, NOT a SEDIV decision, and was probably made for reasons I stated in my previous post. There are actually MORE SARRC races scheduled in Florida in 2007 than there were in 2005 or 2006, so how does this conspiracy work to the detriment of Florida racers?

You really need to get back on your meds, Matt...

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Assistant RE
Protector of Dead Horses

[Butch Kummer]

Damn, Matt. Almost twenty-four hours and no response? Aren't you going to call me a liar like you did KP Jones over on the Prod website? Apparently you've got supporters over there that can't read the calendar any better than you can, so I guess you're done with the IT website for awhile?

I may well be an ego-maniacal, power-hungry bureaucrat, but when I made a mistake with the original groupings for the 2006 ARRC and got called on it (on these pages), I admitted the error and we worked together to fix it. Are you man enough to admit that nine (9) SARRC races in Florida in 2007 are more than eight (8) in 2005 and seven (7) in 2006?

I'M CALLING YOU OUT, MATT WEISBERG!!! CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO MY FEEBLE BRAIN HOW 9 IS LESS THAN 8 AND 7?

(Jeez - I hope I didn't scare the little feller. He's kinda cute in an ugly sorta way...)

[JamesB]

Dont forget hes too busy running a company to get involved.

[RacerBill]

Florida will have five top flight tracks by the end of 2008. THat qualifies them for 10 Nationals. [/b]

I agree that GCR pg. 8 sec. 3.2.2.E says that there will not be more than two National Championship events at each track. But.....

Correct me if I am wrong, doesn't GCR pg 8 sec. 3.2.2.D say "A region shall not conduct more than two (2) National Championship events."

If Florida has only two regions, how do they 'qualify' for 10 Nationals? 2 X 2 = 10?

[JohnRW]

IIf Florida has only two regions, how do they 'qualify' for 10 Nationals? 2 X 2 = 10?
[/b]

Do not attempt to have a rational debate with an irrational person.

[Mattberg]

Geez... Travel for a couple days without checking in and you get crucified!

First your point Butch. The end result was not less races but less desirable scheduling or shall we call it "less racing product". Horrendous actually for the Florida folks. I'll get to that is a second. First, the premise, as it was stated by those who wanted the SARRC schedule adjusted for "fairness", they needed to contain the market in an artificial manner. That meant they needed to somehow limit race availability and product in Florida, remove or reschedule competing dates and or force racers and workers from Florida to poorly attended events being put on by less fortunate regions.

By giving Florida "more" races, the officials who brought this about would have you think they were being generous and charitable, and as Butch has postured it, Florida is getting more. But let's take a look at that. For those in Florida to take advatage of those races they'd have to do an awful lot of racing in 2006 to compete in the SARRC without having to travel to Roebling, Atlanta, Brimingham and possibly farther North in 2007. Five of those 2007 SARRC Florida races take place in 2006 over the course of four race weekends crammed into roughly thirteen weeks between the SIC, Runoffs, ARRC and the Turkey Trot (no longer a SARRC race), not to mention three big holidays and two Jewish holidays. So for the next almost ten months in 2007, Florida has two small singles and one double over only three race weekends.

In 2007 Florida gets two undignified singles and one double. The first is at the far less popular Sebring club course competing against the big Atlanta SARRC/Pro IT/ECR/PDX. The second is a traditionally lightly attended Moroso single that hapens to be on the same weekend as the big double SARRC/MARRS at VIR. Last race of the year for Florida is the double at Sebring, which is pretty much the only decent race scheduled for the 2007 calendar season even though they sandwiched it around a double SARRC at CMP and the National/Pro IT/PDX at Atlanta (actually on the same weekend), pretty much assuring no one from outside Florida will be there. So from June 2, it's just wait four months or get ready to tow. It's clear what the idea here was and it is exactly what their stated goal originally was nine months ago; to reduce competition for both racers and races by distributing the market. Regions like Alabama, South Carolina, Buccaneer and even Atlanta have been struggling to create profitable events and making pleas for more workers, even canceling races. This was the solution they came up with in January. It's the solution I was told directly about and was so upset at at the time. It's the solution they denied pursuing and when the suggestion Florida might leave the division, it's the solution they told Florida officials, wouldn't and couldn't happen. End result is I don't think they wasted one second in moving forward with implementing their solution once the Florida officials left the room and continued right on with their lobbying of small non-racing regions for their votes. It is truly shameful and I assume the Florida officials are feeling quite injured and offended. Rightly so.

As to Florida getting ten Nationals? Hey, as their own division they can create any regional structure they want not to mention getting waivers like Roebling has. SCCA is in no position to play hardball with anyone these days and there are antitrust issues as well. There are regions in SEDIV with something like four people. Probably wouldn't even want more than 6 National, which is plenty, so it's no biggie. But I wouldn't worry that much about the Nationals. If I were the rest of SEDIV I'd be worried a shiiteload about a new Florida racing league competing against what were, in many cases, already poorly attended and struggling SARRC events. I know Atlanta voted against this, and for good reason too. But unfortunately, not just Florida, but all of the SEDIV racers' destinies were put in the hands of a bunch of non-racing regions and a lawyer on a deceptive mission. That's the truly sad thing here, and that a few greedy folks figured out a way to manipulate that system to feed their egos.

[Butch Kummer]

Glad to have you back among the living, Matt. I guess whoever logged on yesterday afternoon was just using your computer without authorization?

The only problem with your entire premise is that it was the FLORIDA regions, CFR and Florida, that moved the sanctions to your self-described "less desireable scheduling". Daytona and the Turkey Trot were traditional dates on the SEDIV calendar and as such CFR had first priority on those dates for 2007. There's NO voting on that by anyone in SEDIV - CFR voluntarily gave up those dates because those events are already oversubscribed and did not need the draw of SARRC points to bring out participants. If you don't like that schedule, you need to turn your poison pen on CFR and Florida, NOT anyone outside Florida!

And as far as Atlanta Region struggling to create a profitable race, we're doing okay. I just tallied up the entries at last weekend's American Road Race of Champions and 379 cars took the green flag over the three-day event. I know that's just not much by CFR standards, but we'll be okay for at least one more year.

As I said, take your venom to CFR. See if Rick Balderson will return a phone call.

I hear a pitcher of margaritas calling my name...

[gprodracer]

I had a reply typed yesterday, showing the SARRC schedule and National schedule (I'm running as many of both as I can) for the tracks in Florida. Unless I have a lot of money, and time to do several back to back weekend events, it does look like anyone who wants to run for the SARRC championship will be forced to travel out of state.
The way the schedule reads, we are done down here in June, and nothing except Regionals until the SIC in October?
You've got to admit, it looks like Florida drivers are being "forced" to travel to run for the SARRC title. Matt can handle all the politics, I'm just trying to figure out how this "new" schedule is supposed to be benefiting all of us. While I love running Roebling, Road Atlanta, etc. few people I know have the extra income, vacation time etc. to travel more than once a year.
I personally am pissed that the Daytona double, and the Turkey Trot are no longer SARRC races (several people who have attended the Turkey Trot for 15 years are not going), and while I know you said that was a CFR decision, there had to be some kind of reason behind it.
Butch, since you are following this thread, any insight as to why the schedule change, and how is the "new schedule supposed to be beneficial to all of us in the SEDIV?
I'm just a common racer, but there are others like me out here. Any light you can shed on this would be greatly appreciated.
PM me if that would work better for you. I realize that these are my own opinions, and may sound self serving, but I feel these are valid points of discussion.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

Looking at this from the outside, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the SARRC Championship be determined by races from all over SeDiv. It IS a Divisional series after all, no? If the Division is too big, than maybe there is a legitimate reason to break it into smaller, more managable pieces - without getting crazy.

Here in NeDiv, we have to run in NH, CT, PA and NY in order to win the NARRC Championship. Yes, that is a far cry in terms of travel when compared to Homestead/VIR...but if your Division is that big... How can you expect not to travel for a Divisional series? CFR must have a series, as should any Region...

[JeffYoung]

Andy, they don't nor does NCR or Atlanta, etc. WE have two pro series that are local, but that is it.

It seems to me that we are heading to two "conferences" in teh SEDiv, FL and NC/SC/GA, with a champ race at Roebling at the end of the year. The FL guys have a legitimate beef (not with Butch but with geography) but with having to tow 10-12 hours just to get enough SARRCs in to compete. I don't have to do that, nor does anyone NC or SC.

Given teh number of tracks in NC/SC/GA on the one hand and FL on the other, there should be a way that everyone can get enough SARRCs local in order to qualify and have a shot at the Roebling SIC.

[gprodracer]

Andy,

While your reply is concise, rational, and looks good on paper, there is much more involved in this than you (or I for that matter) know. While I agree that the SARRC is a SEDIV championship, and travel is a part of the equation, the shifting of extremely popular dates is part of a much deeper issue. While I have no bone to pick with Butch, there are underlying reasons why the large Sebring and Daytona events are no longer part of the SARRC series. How would you feel if your Daytona 500 was now moved to a 1/8 mile dirt track 600 miles away. Drastic example, but the "new" SARRC" schedule was supposed to be beneficial to all the SEDIV racers. It seems to be forcing people to go to several less desireable tracks, all because of some personal (or philosophical) disagreements between RE's. This is not the way we need to work out our differences....with the "I'll take my ball and bat and go home" attitude that seems to be pervasive.

Butch, I have no axe to grind here, but you have stated that "I doubt many people in Florida care about SARRC points", and insinuated that Rick B. doesn't return phone calls (which I have had no problems getting responses from him). I ask politely again...What was the thought process behind not having any SARRC races in Florida after 6/3/07? What benefits does this bring to all the SEDIV racers that the old schedule didnt? Matt has brought up some very good points, and as I said, I'll leave the politics to him, but I'm having a hard time seeing what the point to all the schedule changes for 2007. Please enlighten me as to how wrong Matt is...
Have your Marguaritas tonite, and enjoy!
Mark

[seckerich]

Just curious Mark, If you have 9 SARRC races in Florida how is that forcing you travel any more than the rest of us? I understand that any tow from Florida is a long haul but it is the same for us to come race there. You can show up at the SIC maxed in points and never leave the state. Your RE made the decisions on your races so the buck stops there. Talk to your BOD members if you want answers.

[gprodracer]

Steve,

I'm sure you know that this matter is more complicated than "just running" 9 SARRC races in Florida. I am also running as many National races as I can afford to run as well (if you're going to get your butt kicked, you might as well get it kicked by the best) which will (per the new "improved schedule") mean several back to back weekends to run for either SEDIV championship.
My questions were to find out the thought processes for the 06-07 season. Again.....with the "new schedule" after the 6/3&4/07 Sebring SARRC races, CFR has no other SARRC races until the SIC in October....4 months later.
How is this new schedule good for the SEDIV competitors?
Where are all the answers from the SARRC commitee that approved this new schedule?
As for my BOD, I e-mailed them tonite. I was just asking for the other side of this story, as someone in the other regions has to know why (or what decision was made) that precipitated this schedule change.

Thanks for your concern!
Mark

[seckerich]

Steve,

I'm sure you know that this matter is more complicated than "just running" 9 SARRC races in Florida. I am also running as many National races as I can afford to run as well (if you're going to get your butt kicked, you might as well get it kicked by the best) which will (per the new "improved schedule") mean several back to back weekends to run for either SEDIV championship.
My questions were to find out the thought processes for the 06-07 season. Again.....with the "new schedule" after the 6/3&4/07 Sebring SARRC races, CFR has no other SARRC races until the SIC in October....4 months later.
How is this new schedule good for the SEDIV competitors?
Where are all the answers from the SARRC commitee that approved this new schedule?
As for my BOD, I e-mailed them tonite. I was just asking for the other side of this story, as someone in the other regions has to know why (or what decision was made) that precipitated this schedule change.

Thanks for your concern!
Mark
[/b]

I see what you mean about the big gaps in the schedule. Let us know what you hear from your board. I am new to the CCR board and this will be my first year dealing with these issues. I look forward to seeing the background for their decision.