Jeckyll Secret Meeting

[Butch Kummer]

Mark,

I was as surprised (and disappointed) as you were that CFR moved their SARRC sanctions from the Turkey Trot and Daytona to "less desireable" dates and locations. The mangling of the Florida Region schedule probably has to do with available dates at Homestead and Moroso, but I can only suppose that CFR chose to move their sanctions for the reasons I stated above - the Turkey Trot and Daytona "Festival of Speed" (my words, not theirs) are already oversubscribed and people will show up for those regardless of SARRC points. The SARRC rules regarding number of sanctions (4 total with one double per region) have not changed in the past ten years at least. Even though Matt chooses not to, you can believe me when I say there was no vote, secret or otherwise, at a divisional level that forced CFR and FR to move their sanctions.

There ARE SARRC rules (which have also been in place for a long time) that address the length and scheduling of the SARRC race when part of a multi-race weekend. Perhaps these restraints on how CFR conducts their racing weekends (I know CFR and FR are both fond of multi-race weekend - one qualifier and multiple sprint races) are what is prompting this latest evaluation of secession from SEDIV.

At any rate, you need to register your concerns/complaints with the CFR and FR boards, not anyone at a divisional level.


Steve,

Welcome to the dark side. :P I'll buy the first round at Jekyll...

Butch Kummer

[Butch Kummer]

Mark,

Went back to catch up on the latest turns in this particular soap opera and realized I had missed your comment about my comment about Rick Balderson (or John Zuccarelli) not returning calls. My experience with both is that they are upfront guys and just happy as hell to be here, plus I also have never had any problem talking to either of them and getting what I believe are honest answers.

My comments were directed toward one particular individual that chooses not to believe anything you tell him and will continue to argue endlessly regardless of the facts in the matter. If his number were to show up on my caller ID I know I would let it roll over to voicemail and make sure I had an hour to waste before bothering to return the call. With a region of over 3000 members, I'd reckon Rick (who is that person's RE, I believe) would have even less time to deal with people that refuse to listen to reason.

Sorry if I cast either Rick or John in a bad light, and I'd certainly be interested in anything you find out about the 2007 SARRC scheduling process from either of them.

Butch Kummer

[Butch Kummer]

I know Matt's been off fighting other battles, but does anyone have updates on this matter based on discussions at the Turkey Trot and/or annual CFR meeting (which was Dec. 2)?

Lee Arnold (Mr. V8StockCar) attended the Dec. 2 meeting and confirmed my supposition that the CFR race board moved the SARRC sanctions for the reasons I've suggested - the Turkey Trot and Daytona are oversubscribed and they decided not to "waste" the SARRC sanctions on drawing even more people to those events. According to Lee, the CFR Race Chair (Robin Langlotz) said attendance at the Trot was down about 20 cars from previous years and they were willing to accept that.

Lee also said the idea of secession from SEDIV was brought up in the general meeting and the CFR Board said nothing was being pursued on that front.

Anyone else attend that meeting, or do I have to wait for January's secret meeting at Jekyll to find out more?

Butch Kummer
Black Helicopter Air Traffic Controller

[imported_Webmaster]

>> Too bad there isn't an "ignore thread" option on this board.

Click on user's name. (or My Controls) And in the top right where it says "Profile Options"
Select Ignore User.

Manage your ignored users

This section allows you to set up your ignored users list.
When you add a user to your ignore list, any posts they make will be masked until you specify that you wish to read them. You may not be able to ignore users if they are in a member group which doesn't allow them to be added.[/b]

[Anubis]

OK, lemme get this straight.... Florida regions play games with the SARRC race weekends fubarring the schedule and somehow its SEDIV's fault? Shouldn't this discussion be ongoing with the involved Florida regions?

[gprodracer]

Lance,

There is so much more going on with this that I could write a 10 page post. IMO it comes down to every region having one vote towards what's going on, regardless of how many members that region has (ie: a region w/ 85 members has the same voting power as a region w/ 2500+ members).
Add in egos of the various RE"S, and things get worse.
From what I've heard, and learned, both sides opinions have some merit, and both sides have some problems to address.
Make the best informed opinion you can, and inform your RE of your wishes. This continuing conflict will get worse before it gets better, and the club racers will suffer until it gets resolved.
My 2 cents.
Mark

[tom_sprecher]

Where are all the answers from the SARRC commitee that approved this new schedule?
[/b]

Due to past experience I have ignored this thread up until now because it was started by Mattberg. Also, much thanks to Webmaster for the info on the "Ignore User" function as I will be using it. However, I would like to clarify a few items for those with or without open minds .

First, as a member of the SARRC committee let me inform everyone that we DO NOT make anybody’s race schedule. It is the RE's that form and approve the yearly race schedule, so if you have a bitch about your schedule you need to talk to them instead of posting your myopic opinions here. Keep in mind that available dates at usable tracks are the first obstacle to overcome when planning any schedule. Make sure you are familiar with those before you make any phone call so you do not waste anyone else's time.

Second, as many times as I have fielded questions on the subject we DO NOT approve the daily schedule of any race except the SIC. We have nothing to do with the number of practice or qualifying sessions or run groups, etc. Talk to your Competition Chair about those issues.

Third, if you do not believe me with regard to the SARRC committee's authority and responsibilities read the SARRC rules available to anyone at the SEDiv website.

And last, for what its worth I feel there are too many regions in Area 12. This is an inefficient use of available resources that can lead to problems such as the topic of this thread. A first step toward strengthening the relationship between the two Areas I would see what can be done to combine some regions in Area 12. It is a shame that the amount of effort expended on this thread was not instead directed toward this issue. Then the Mattbergs of this world would possibly be doing something worthwhile.

[Mattberg]

[DELETED] It's just not worth saying anymore...

[Anubis]

Lance,

There is so much more going on with this that I could write a 10 page post. IMO it comes down to every region having one vote towards what's going on, regardless of how many members that region has (ie: a region w/ 85 members has the same voting power as a region w/ 2500+ members).
Add in egos of the various RE"S, and things get worse.
From what I've heard, and learned, both sides opinions have some merit, and both sides have some problems to address.
Make the best informed opinion you can, and inform your RE of your wishes. This continuing conflict will get worse before it gets better, and the club racers will suffer until it gets resolved.
My 2 cents.
Mark
[/b]

Well, that may be the case but count me out of actually finding out more. Read Mattberg's post if you have any wonder why, combine his crap on here and the continued officials suck mantra by some on other boards and I'm out. I'll flag what is thrown at me then drink the night away while ignoring comments about the "fat lazy(which i why 90% of the time I run after race cars) officials", "useless wastes of space", and whatever else you guys want to call officials.

[Mattberg]

Well, that may be the case but count me out of actually finding out more. Read Mattberg's post if you have any wonder why, combine his crap on here and the continued officials suck mantra by some on other boards and I'm out. I'll flag what is thrown at me then drink the night away while ignoring comments about the "fat lazy(which i why 90% of the time I run after race cars) officials", "useless wastes of space", and whatever else you guys want to call officials.
[/b]

Nothing worth saying until that comment...

Let's say you invest $3 million directly and another $100K of your own money on a deal. A bunch of folks run up to you and say they want to participate and volunteer to get involved. They say they'll manage and represent your interest and investment. You then find out that those same folks spent over 2/3 of the money you produced on salaries and personal expenses and virtually nothing towards your project. That's what it amounts to in this case and you want to tell me officials are doing a good job? They spent $1.2 million on meetings and reimbursements last year. They have lost participation in virtually every region and at national for close to fifteen years in a row. We have gone from a cash rich club to a seriously in debt charity case. What do you want me to call the officials that brought this about? Saviors from the capitalistic dream? Good socialists? You're naive Lance. Road racing provides virtually all of the revenue to this club but they get nothing but programs designed to squeeze every last penny out of them. This from officials that get elected by workers and soloists. That's why the officials court them. Racers can't provide a voting base but official found a way to secure their revenue and keep control of the club. No black helicopters here, plain old every day politics.

Please explain to me why a region with three members gets the same vote as CFR? And remember this is a system that was created and set up by your beloved officials and workers, not racers. Explain to me why solo paid no insurance until the late nineties and now rides on club racing's liability policy for free. Explain to me why officials and directors received $1.2 million for reimbursements and meeting expenses. Bottom line is that officials like using other people's money and exerting undue influence from a minority position financially but a majority position through a system they created to secure those terms. If it were a company every last one would be fired for both misfeasance and/or non-performance. The fact that they pay themselves for it makes them a "waste of space."

Tell you what. Figure out how the club is going to carry debt service on our new LC usage (which we maxed out to $600K to cover lawsuit expenses for criminal activity by the BoD and other officials). Tell me how you're going to take fifteen years of declining revenue and participation and turn it around with the folks you all have elected. We racers have no say in the matter so it's up to you. Personally, as a turnaround guy all my life, I'd fire every last one of them, pay the workers and start a dictatorship that got rid of the subsidies that support the current voting base that support losers in everyday life seeking importance in the dreamworld they've created. Committees only create waffle syndrome.

You see, Florida cares about their racers. It's a racing region. Atlanta is on life support with bulldozers in the distance and developers splashing floorplans to potential condo buyers. SEDIV has a poorly run region owned track, two or three terrible layouts in the Carolinas and a track in Alabama that has been alienated and is for the most part in a non-racing region that can't draw much of a crowd, especially without Florida. Florida has four world class tracks. Moroso is no great shakes but I'd take it over Roebling six days a week and twice on Sunday. So bud, let's hear your plan for SEDIV and SARRC with what's left without Florida? You can sit back all day and say you don't like my delivery but I don't candy coat it like all the officials do. That's why I'm usually succesful in my ventures where these folks aren't. They're blinded by mediocrity and apathy in seeking only personal satisfaction and pleasing of their friends. They have no accountability and when I justifiably ask for it, guys like you start bitching and moaning about how they're volunteers and I'm an asshole and completely eclipse the real issues while the officials continue on their disaster course. When the money runs out, they'll find some other support group for their jollies where they don't need to use any of their own money to "be involved" but as long as you suppot them and keep their money and esteem flowing they'll stick around. Looks to me like Florida ain't sticking around. Best of luck to you but from what I've read, Braselton is right on the edge of legal precedent. I wouldn't depend on the Supreme Court upholding any rights to preserve a race track. Next upswing in the RE market will see a "three bedroom with a view" at turn 11. :P

[Andy Bettencourt]

[Fastfred92]

two or three terrible layouts in the Carolinas and a track in Alabama that has been alienated and is for the most part in a non-racing region that can't draw much of a crowd, especially without Florida. Florida has four world class tracks. Moroso is no great shakes but I'd take it over Roebling six days a week and twice on Sunday. [/b]

While I have no interest in getting in this fight I must question mattberg here........ The carolinas claim VIR which is actually located ON the Virgina / NC border and is actually a "world class" race track. Rockingham, Lowes, Daytona, Homestead are all the same, rovals, and CMP and Moroso are shitholes ( although CMP could be fixed ). Sebring is a historic track and IMHO is a "world class" track if you have not had substantial dental work or kidney problems. By my count that means the Carolinas and Florida have the same number of "world class" tracks. I consider Road Atlanta a "world class" joint as well, even with the rumble of Cat D9's off in the distance.

Sorry to interrupt

[charrbq]

No black helicopters here, plain old every day politics.

Personally, as a turnaround guy all my life, I'd start a dictatorship that support losers in everyday life seeking importance in the dreamworld they've created.

I'm an asshole.
[/quote]

Your words, Matt!

[tom_sprecher]

From what I've been told the rumors about Road Atlanta being turned into a golf course or a subdivision may have to be put on hold since they are in the process of repaving the track. I don't think Mr. Panoz would be going through all that expense if he was considering selling the place. Do you?

Time to check out the ignore user function and turn off all this boring drivel.

[Mattberg]

While I have no interest in getting in this fight I must question mattberg here........ The carolinas claim VIR which is actually located ON the Virgina / NC border and is actually a "world class" race track. Rockingham, Lowes, Daytona, Homestead are all the same, rovals, and CMP and Moroso are shitholes ( although CMP could be fixed ). Sebring is a historic track and IMHO is a "world class" track if you have not had substantial dental work or kidney problems. By my count that means the Carolinas and Florida have the same number of "world class" tracks. I consider Road Atlanta a "world class" joint as well, even with the rumble of Cat D9's off in the distance.

Sorry to interrupt
[/b]

VIR? World class. Way to far for some SEDIV folks as it really gets in an in-between area with NEDIV, but definately world class. But, to compare Daytona and Homestead to Lowes is like comparing a Motel 6 to the Four Seasons. Homestead is a pretty cool road track with some pretty major elevation changes and combination of both fast and technical turns and some big speed. Awesome facility as well. Moroso is flat and just plain dirty but fun as hell to drive. Daytona? What can you say? Never gone faster anywhere and... it's friggin' Daytona dude. Goose bumps. Kershaw is a place I will never go back to which is echoed by many drivers I know. Lowes is the same and considered a terrible track that many in SEDIV won't go to. Usually the worst attended races in the division for exactly that reason. Road Atlanta? World class too. Not so happy with some of the changes there since my first visit in 1985 but still one of the top tracks in the US if not in the world. Lousy town though. Homestead, Daytona and Moroso have some bigtime fun only minutes from the track. And let's see what DEI builds. I hear it's going to be awesome.

I fear that a repaving at Atlanta is just something that needed to be done if there weren't condos going in in order to remain world class. I think the growth and expansion in Atlanta is a bad sign for the future there without NASCAR support. We'll see.


I can't believe Andy actually let someone photograph him doing that... What an exhibitionist. I'm never pulling your finger again Andy. :026:

[Russ Myers]

Sorry, Matt. When you use the chicane at Daytona, Charlotte has a longer "straight". Having driven both, Charlotte is more fun, you can pull higher "G&#39;s" through the banks at CMS. The chicane spoils the run at Daytona. AND PEOPLE< Kershaw is not that bad a track. It just had to be designed with environmental concerns in the thinking. And VIR is no harder to get to than Homestead or Moroso. Hell, I can get to Mid-Ohio twice as fast as Moroso. Besides which, how would you know? I&#39;ve never seen you at CMS or CMP or VIR or Road Atlanta or Rockingham....

Russ

And I still don&#39;t see what you have against auto-crossing. Even after 30 years (on-and-off) in this club, I still like to play in the parking lots. This is where those young people you talk about are coming from. And if you went to a lot omce in a while, you would see that they are there.

Russ

[Fastfred92]

I think you will find ( BTW mattberg ) that for the sake of IT discussion, Lowes is the fastest track here in the SE division, one of the fastest ( avg mph lap ) in the USA.... Daytona is cool but get your facts right.