What cars as time goes on?

[JimLill]

Did you know that per the 2006 GCR listing, there are 312 different spec lines amongst the IT classes?

I put together a simple data base, it'd be great if we could do a census of which of those are active. IMO, that'd be a start at understanding where we might need to be proactive.

get a copy at http://www.vectorbd.com/users/jpl/it-spec.xls

One potential source of census date-> http://www.scca.com/garage/forum/forum_top...asp?FID=82&PN=1

[JimLill]

relative to the 5 year or just newer cars.... one thing that will surely be an issue is the integration of non-engine related controls into the ECU or other module. After awhile, my fear would be any removal of the whiz-bang stuff, means no more proper running. Limp-home and failsafes taking over.

[pfcs49]

Kirk, Jeff, Daves:
I can't BELIEVE I'm saying this:!! How about restricted prep/new B&C cars. How about making these cars so much more economical and sensible by eliminating most engine prep: stock exhaust manifolds, no internal mods?? Why make competitors go to so much trouble to find 10-15% more power-give it to them at the start.
One problem finding new B&C elgible vehicles is that newer cars all seem to be more powerful-this would tend to counter this disadvantage in finding cars to class, and would serve to keep B&C an economical, grass roots class like (I believe) it's supposed to be. And yes, with these preparation constraints, there would be no need for any change to engine management rules for restricted cars, another free bonus. (and if you crammed a Motec into your box, it would be a profound waste of money) Back to Basics! Phil Hunt I SURE MISS THE OLD DAYS TOO

[Racy-Stacey]

I hope to have a replacing option with the 90 Probe GL. But from what I've experienced so far is the little rabbits are still faster. Now I thought given a drag race in 1990 my car vs the little rabbit, my car would blow the doors off the little rabbit. Not so on course today 2006. Maybe its the .5 increase that is allowed to the bottom end compression thats allowing them to walk away from me. Or maybe its something else. Maybe i'll still too heavy of a car in the power to weight ratio war. But the object of racing is options, not we all drive the same car because its the only one that has the best PtoW ratio. Like they do in solo. All the front runners of a given class run the same car. Why? because they figured out that car is the best for that class.

Someone mentioned the track records. Now I have to chim in on track records. If they were set by cars that ran 100% legal then I could see how important they are. But lets face it. If you ever get a chance to look at the results at races. You'll see ITB cars smoking the ITC cars and in most cases beating the times of ITA cars. ITA cars smoking the times of some ITS cars. Track records are ofter 5 sec a lap faster than anyone else could ever hope to get without doing something... shall I say illegal. In true legal form there should be a real tangable time difference between classes of cars. ITB cars if they are in the correct class should not be running for ITA win, etc.

Back in the day or maybe even not then either, a track record might have really ment something. But now its just a joke to me. Its a person with a crazy car creating a very unattainable bench mark for everyone else to try and meet. A true track record would have cars within one sec to 1.5 of all the other seasoned drivers driving the same type of car.

I'll step down now..

[shwah]

Assuming equally driven and prepped cars in all classes your point would be valid. However that is simply not the case. As much as we all want to beleive that we are excellent race drivers, very few of our colleagues are. Those are the guys that will take a legal, well prepped car and run seconds faster than everyone else on that one race weekend with great conditions.

Sure there are illegal cars out there, but I beleive there are just as many slow ones as fast ones, just like the legal cars.

[Gary L]

Stacey - While there may the the odd record or two that was set way back when, by someone driving a car that was illegal, IMO you're just plain dead wrong in most cases. I believe that at most tracks, the IT lap records are fairly representative of a legal, state-of-the-art car, driven by an above-average driver.

[JoshS]

relative to the 5 year or just newer cars.... one thing that will surely be an issue is the integration of non-engine related controls into the ECU or other module. After awhile, my fear would be any removal of the whiz-bang stuff, means no more proper running. Limp-home and failsafes taking over.
[/b]

Yes. The rules should strive to avoid forcing owners to disable stock equipment, for exactly this reason.

Case in point: disabling ABS or traction control by disabling wheel speed sensors can cause cars to go into limp mode. There may be other ways to disable these systems that don't cause issues.

Also, removing catalytic converters can cause cars to go into limp mode too, if they have both pre-cat and post-cat O2 sensors, as mine does.

The difference here is that the rules require disabling ABS/TC, but don't require removing cats. I therefore don't have a problem with the cat rules, but I do have a problem with the ABS/TC rules. If the rules must require disabling these systems, it should allow for more than one disabling method.

I've actually drafted a letter already on this point, but before I sent it I need to confirm that removing wheel speed sensors actually causes a problem on my car. The internet world tells me it does, but I don't want to bitch and moan about it too loudly until I prove it to myself.

[RSTPerformance]

Kirk, Jeff, Daves:
I can't BELIEVE I'm saying this:!! How about restricted prep/new B&C cars. How about making these cars so much more economical and sensible by eliminating most engine prep: stock exhaust manifolds, no internal mods?? Why make competitors go to so much trouble to find 10-15% more power-give it to them at the start.
One problem finding new B&C elgible vehicles is that newer cars all seem to be more powerful-this would tend to counter this disadvantage in finding cars to class, and would serve to keep B&C an economical, grass roots class like (I believe) it's supposed to be. And yes, with these preparation constraints, there would be no need for any change to engine management rules for restricted cars, another free bonus. (and if you crammed a Motec into your box, it would be a profound waste of money) Back to Basics! Phil Hunt I SURE MISS THE OLD DAYS TOO
[/b]

Interesting idea... I like it and support it

Stacy-

I have to agree with others on this one... In our neck of the woods every track record is atainable by a legal car. That isn't to say that I think a legal car has every track record, it just means that every track record is atainable with the current classed cars at current rules. The right driver in the right car just needs to be at the track on the right day. I have run every track in the Northeast as well as at the ARRC within .5 seconds of the ITB track record, and my car certainly could have more if I had more $$$ and more time. I have also run all the same tracks with the same car in the same condition and been 1.5 seconds off the track record, and wondered how the heck did I ever go that fast??? With all that I do think that track records are as much as an achievement if not more as victories (class wins) as they are a longer term goal worth fighting for.

Raymond "Pocono track record holder in ITB for 4 hours till my brother whipped my..." Blethen

[pfcs49]

Re: limp mode
I don't know of any European management system that goes into limp mode when rear oxygen or vehicle speed sensors are disabled Phil

[JoshS]

Re: limp mode
I don't know of any European management system that goes into limp mode when rear oxygen or vehicle speed sensors are disabled Phil
[/b]

I will endeavor to prove or disprove this weekend. I hope you're right, but the experts tell me otherwise.

If it does cause a problem, my letter will ask for an exception on the spec line allowing alternate ways to disable these systems as opposed to a wholesale change to the IT rules, because I think that's a more realistic request. My goal is to get this car on the track without a custom ECU.

[shwah]

Since the O2 sensors are looking for readings within a certain range, otherwise the system throws codes, goes into limp or whatever, it would seem possible to simulate a 'normal' response with resistors or other simple methods.

[Z3_GoCar]

I will endeavor to prove or disprove this weekend. I hope you're right, but the experts tell me otherwise.

If it does cause a problem, my letter will ask for an exception on the spec line allowing alternate ways to disable these systems as opposed to a wholesale change to the IT rules, because I think that's a more realistic request. My goal is to get this car on the track without a custom ECU.
[/b]

Josh,

Search the BMW section for Noem's experience on the subject. I think you'll find it interesting that he had the issues he did. The best way to disable the ABS system is to remove the ABS relay and the power to the ABS pump. This is allowed as the all parts of the ABS system may be removed. The issue with traction control is that the intake track is open so the auxillery throttle butterfly that cuts air down is also legally removable. The real problem comes when you start dealing with the differential braking system, ASC+T... Now that I'm not yet certain how to deal with.

James

[Z3_GoCar]

......

If you ever get a chance to look at the results at races. You'll see ITB cars smoking the ITC cars and in most cases beating the times of ITA cars. ITA cars smoking the times of some ITS cars. Track records are ofter 5 sec a lap faster than anyone else could ever hope to get without doing something... shall I say illegal. In true legal form there should be a real tangable time difference between classes of cars. ITB cars if they are in the correct class should not be running for ITA win, etc.

Back in the day or maybe even not then either, a track record might have really ment something. But now its just a joke to me. Its a person with a crazy car creating a very unattainable bench mark for everyone else to try and meet. A true track record would have cars within one sec to 1.5 of all the other seasoned drivers driving the same type of car.

I'll step down now..
[/b]

Hey Stacey,

I agree with your frustration. I ran what I "thought" were good lap times at Wilow Springs. Maybe it's the complete lack of aero on my open top roadster, but I was still out side the ITB track record set there. BTW, the ITB record holder at Willow Springs is my friend Kevin Macdonald in his 2002, the same car I drove in my drivers school. I was able to run well with an E-prod 240ZX, but the Radial Sedan guy's ran off and left me behind, what when my car should have been leaving 'S cars behind. In the end seat time and driving skills are very important to making good times. Good luck with getting ready for next season.

James

[JoshS]

Search the BMW section for Noem's experience on the subject. I think you'll find it interesting that he had the issues he did. The best way to disable the ABS system is to remove the ABS relay and the power to the ABS pump. This is allowed as the all parts of the ABS system may be removed. The issue with traction control is that the intake track is open so the auxillery throttle butterfly that cuts air down is also legally removable. The real problem comes when you start dealing with the differential braking system, ASC+T... Now that I'm not yet certain how to deal with.
[/b]

My car has newer programming than the other BMWs racing in IT right now (MS42.1). That also means that it has a different throttle, the motor-driven one. Instead of having a separate throttle butterfly like the earlier cars, all of that function is contained within the main throttle body on mine. But disconnecting some cables on the throttle body would probably take care of that, unless some diagnostic cycle also sends things into limp mode on that. Frankly I think the best approach is to pull a fuse.

I know that the argument against this concept of a special allowance would be that the GCR-prescribed method is a visual guarantee that there are no such systems enabled. But how is one to know that if the wheel speed sensors are still connected, that I don't really have some sort of software-based traction control that operates on the still-connected ignition system in there? I don't know how to address that concern, to be honest, except that I have heard cars with those systems and I think the exhaust note is a huge telltale -- they sound like they are missing, badly, when the system is "engaged."

But anyway, about the differential braking system: disabling the ABS in any fashion will also disable the differential braking system, because that system requires the ABS system to activate the rear brakes.

[Racy-Stacey]

I hope you all understand that these are just my ramblings of someone new to the sport and just an overview of what I've seen. I'm just blowing off some fustration i guess. sorry all.

-Stacey

[pfcs49]

Since the O2 sensors are looking for readings within a certain range, otherwise the system throws codes, goes into limp or whatever, it would seem possible to simulate a 'normal' response with resistors or other simple methods.
[/b]

With no frt oxs signal, the system just reverts to it's programmed (mapped) fuel curves; And at full throttle, it would ignore the front sensor anyway, following it's full load map.
The only function of the rear sensor is to monitor catalytic convertor efficiency and post a code for that.
Simulating a signal serves no practical purpose excepting to keep the check engine light out, and creates nothing but liabilities (feed the wrong signal to the ECM for frt oxs and melt your pistons/run like bag of hooey)

[shwah]

I was referring to the comments stating that they don't think newer cars will run right without cats and 2 O2 sensors. Since the second one is just there to monitor cat efficiency you should be able to work around that IF just unplugging it does in fact trigger a limp mode of sorts. Yeah, don't mess with the one helping you get the right AFR

[Bill Miller]

Kirk, Jeff, Daves:
I can't BELIEVE I'm saying this:!! How about restricted prep/new B&C cars. How about making these cars so much more economical and sensible by eliminating most engine prep: stock exhaust manifolds, no internal mods?? Why make competitors go to so much trouble to find 10-15% more power-give it to them at the start.
One problem finding new B&C elgible vehicles is that newer cars all seem to be more powerful-this would tend to counter this disadvantage in finding cars to class, and would serve to keep B&C an economical, grass roots class like (I believe) it's supposed to be. And yes, with these preparation constraints, there would be no need for any change to engine management rules for restricted cars, another free bonus. (and if you crammed a Motec into your box, it would be a profound waste of money) Back to Basics! Phil Hunt I SURE MISS THE OLD DAYS TOO
[/b]

Phil,

I understand the idea, and I think it has merit. It's worked in Prod (please don't think I'm comparing IT to Prod). Here's the way I read your post, run cars in essentially SS trim in IT so that they can run in the 'lower' classes. A couple of problems I see with the idea are a) even in SS trim, there aren't a whole lot of newer cars that would fit in ITC and if you're going to do something, you have to do it for all the classes in a category.

[pfcs49]

Bill-I'm only suggesting leaving engines alone; the beauty of IT lies in the quantum improvement in handling and chassis dynamics allowed with minimal/sensible mods.
Swah-you can connect or disconnect the front sensor-it only conrols mixture at part load when you don't much care about tuning, and the part load maps are fine without it as well. I'd recommend removing it and putting a wide range sensor and display in it's place for tuning/peace of mind reasons Phil

[gran racing]

Phil,
I do like the idea, but am pretty sure that would require a new category created for it to ever happen. If SM could be created, so could this.