16v Cars

[Eric Parham]

Good advice Greg, but the email letter's already sent and I wouldn't want to confuse it with supplemental info (unless asked). Note that the ITA Miata 1.8 weighs 2380, ITA Miata 1.6 weighs 2205. So yes, the ITA Scirocco 16V at 2320 is already slightly lighter than the Miata 1.8, but 115 lbs HEAVIER than the Miata 1.6. If there's one thing I can compare with after this year, it's that my ITC Scirocco 1.7 at 2110 is significantly slower (say 3 seconds per lap) than a well-driven SSM Miata 1.6 that weighs 2300 in SSM trim and runs 1:03s at Lime Rock.

Now, subtract a second for the SSM to ITA mods, and another 1/2 second for the 95 lb SSM to ITA weight reduction, and the Miata will be running 1:01-1:02 at Lime Rock (born out by Andy's recent track record, although I think he did it with a Miata 1.8). The ITC Scirocco 1.7 at about 2110 can run 1:05-1:06 at Lime Rock. The ITB Scirocco 1.8 8V at about the same weight can run 1:04-1:05. The ITA Scirocco 1.8 16V, if it were reduced to weigh 2100-2150 lbs, might be able to chase the Miatas. At 2320, there's simply no chance. At the current weight, I think it would be an incredible feat just to break into the high 1:03s, with 1:04s more likely. If it gets a meaningful reduction, I'll probably build one. If not, it's simply not worth the effort.

[shwah]

If you're making an argument that the Golf should lose weight too, I don't disagree. I already admitted that your aero assumption is possible, but I think we can continue to disagree on the aero point. Unless you have some free wind-tunnel time, you're making an argument that can't be properly supported when based on unknown or disputed "facts". [/b]

Yeah sorry about that. I just didn't have any facts available. I do know that the Golf has a lower drag coefficient than a Jetta. I would expect the Scirocco to have a better drag coefficient, and know that it has substantially less frontal area due to the much lower roof line. I used this assumption in my comments.

I just did some digging to see if we could inject some facts into the point and found this. The data is from a UK site 'carfolio.com':

1986 Golf 2 16v
cd = .34
A = 1.91m^2
Cx = 0.65

1985 Jetta GTI
cd = .36

The Golf reportedly had a 19% improvement in cd over the Rabbit. Thus:
Rabbit
cd = .40

At Scirocco.org I found the S1 cd = .42 and,

Scirocco 2
cd = .38 (this is the original car, w/o the 16v spoiler/foam weight)

That is all that I could find.

[Eric Parham]

Thanks Chris, that's interesting info. I really expected the Jetta to be better than the Golf. Oh well. I wonder if the Jetta GLI 16V rear spoiler would help?

On the issue of the Scirocco 16V urethane/foam stuff, I've heard that it was more for looks than anything else. Someone knowledgeable told me that he thought it would increase drag over the cleaner 8V trim. Either way, it's hard to say what happens in IT trim with the windows down, etc.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Good advice Greg, but the email letter's already sent and I wouldn't want to confuse it with supplemental info (unless asked). Note that the ITA Miata 1.8 weighs 2380, ITA Miata 1.6 weighs 2205. So yes, the ITA Scirocco 16V at 2320 is already slightly lighter than the Miata 1.8, but 115 lbs HEAVIER than the Miata 1.6. If there's one thing I can compare with after this year, it's that my ITC Scirocco 1.7 at 2110 is significantly slower (say 3 seconds per lap) than a well-driven SSM Miata 1.6 that weighs 2300 in SSM trim and runs 1:03s at Lime Rock. [/b]

The ITA 1.6 Miata weighs 2255 per the Feb Fast Track addendum. It also makes 116 hp stock. LRP may not be the best track to use as comparision against a Miata. Try something a little more power intensive.

I think these cars are heavy as listed. *I* think the 2.0 should be around 2375, the 1.8 Golf should be 2180, the Rocco aroud 2230...all based in un-debated 'process' numbers.

For the record, I don't believe that I have seen any ITA VW's that have the development that the Integra's have, that my Miata has, and most certainly that Greg's NX has (Northeastern reference points). Until one goes 100%, it's hard to compare.

[shwah]

Thanks Chris, that's interesting info. I really expected the Jetta to be better than the Golf. Oh well. I wonder if the Jetta GLI 16V rear spoiler would help?

On the issue of the Scirocco 16V urethane/foam stuff, I've heard that it was more for looks than anything else. Someone knowledgeable told me that he thought it would increase drag over the cleaner 8V trim. Either way, it's hard to say what happens in IT trim with the windows down, etc.
[/b]

I agree, I thought the Jetta might be better. I do expect the GLI wing would help separation at the trunk and make a bit of difference. I also expect the 16v Scirocco airdam would help. The 16v rear wing looks like it would help separation more than the little 8v wing, but then again the Porshce 928 looks like it should be more aerodynamic going forward than backwards, which in 1978 was not true...

[Eric Parham]

The ITA 1.6 Miata weighs 2255 per the Feb Fast Track addendum.[/b]

Missed that. Thanks for the correction

I think these cars are heavy as listed. *I* think the 2.0 should be around 2375, the 1.8 Golf should be 2180, the Rocco aroud 2230...all based in un-debated 'process' numbers.[/b]

Those do sound reasonable. I don't think it would be enough for the Scirocco, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

For the record, I don't believe that I have seen any ITA VW's that have the development that the Integra's have, that my Miata has, and most certainly that Greg's NX has (Northeastern reference points). Until one goes 100%, it's hard to compare.[/b]

Maybe not in ITA, but there was one in ITS. Jeff Poor, now greatly missed, used to drive the wheels off of a GTI 2.0L 16V when it was in ITS at 2220 lbs. My understanding is that Jeff's car had undergone an all-out mechanical effort by SRS. It moved to ITA at 2475, quite a significant weight increase from its old ITS weight. At the old weight, I'm pretty sure that he just managed to break into the high 1:02s at Lime Rock, on occasion. I know he had some decent times at NHIS too, but I don't know what they were.

I think the GTI 2.0L 16V would have been a competitive ITA car at its old ITS weight. I don't think there's much more to be had after that. Extrapolating to the smaller displacement but similar VW 1.8L 16V, I simply can't imagine that anything over about 2150 would have any chance at all in ITA, IMHO.

I agree, I thought the Jetta might be better. I do expect the GLI wing would help separation at the trunk and make a bit of difference. I also expect the 16v Scirocco airdam would help. The 16v rear wing looks like it would help separation more than the little 8v wing, but then again the Porshce 928 looks like it should be more aerodynamic going forward than backwards, which in 1978 was not true...[/b]

Just to clarify, both the Jetta GLI 8V (and some Wolfsbergs) and the Jetta GLI 16V had rear spoilers, but the ones that I've seen on some of the Jetta 16Vs seem to have more surface area (these are usually body colored rather than black).

The Scirocco 16V rear spoiler is identical to the last iteration of the Scirocco 8V rear spoiler. The Scirocco 16V front air dam isn't much, and would normally be replaced with something more useful under the IT rules, or simply removed (if allowed, not sure on that).

[Greg Amy]

I think the GTI 2.0L 16V would have been a competitive ITA car at its old ITS weight (2220).[/b]

Well, DUH!!!!

No offense, Eric, but am I in some alternative-VW world this week? You're telling me that you believe the Volkswagen 2.0L DOHC 16V FWD strut-equipped Golf should weight **300 pounds less** than my Nissan 2.0L DOHC 16V FWD strut-equipped NX2000 (and 150+ pounds less than a 1.8L Miata)? Why in the world would you think that? Do VWs really suck that bad...? I doubt it.

And this is coming from a guy that's owned, enjoyed, driven, and raced some form of VWoA product since I was allowed to!

You boys just gotta get outta your pouty "going to the garden and eat worms" attitudes and MAKE IT HAPPEN. Show me a max-out build on a Golf (and that means probably spending $25k minimum and running serious shocks instead of off-the-shelf Bilsteins, 9# wheels instead of stock VWs, new Hoosiers, etc) driven by an experienced, skilled driver that's failed to consistenly run at the front, and we can chat. Otherwise...

[Eric Parham]

You boys just gotta get outta your pouty "going to the garden and eat worms" attitudes and MAKE IT HAPPEN. Show me a max-out build on a Golf (and that means probably spending $25k minimum and running serious shocks instead of off-the-shelf Bilsteins, 9# wheels instead of stock VWs, new Hoosiers, etc) driven by an experienced, skilled driver that's failed to consistenly run at the front, and we can chat. Otherwise...[/b]

Greg, first of all any whining was only in jest. I'd just like some options for next year.

The Bilsteins aren't as bad as they might seem to you. For example, mine might look "off-the-shelf" to a casual observer, but the rears have been both re-valved and modified so they're externally adjustable, and the fronts are re-valved (actually reasonable through Bilstein's mail-in motorsports program) european rallye units stuffed into stock off-the-shelf Bilstein housings, which, in turn, have been modified for the Hypercoil coil-overs. If you think I (or anyone else with seemingly "off-the-shelf" Bilsteins) haven't spent enough money, I (and especially my wife) only wish you were right

I was merely using the GTI as a point of reference. Honestly, all I care about right now is the Scirocco 1.8L 16V. As to how much was spent on the aforementioned ITS GTI effort, I can only shudder at the thought. I really have no idea, but it was described to me as "all out" and he sure drove it to the limit, IMHO.

[Bildon]

What's the fastest 2L 16v lap at WGI or LRP that you can recall?

[Andy Bettencourt]

What's the fastest 2L 16v lap at WGI or LRP that you can recall? [/b]

You also have to take into account the timeframe. The Late Jeff Poor ran high 1:02's in what year? Understand that all classes continue to develop and get faster with continued development and newer technologies - like tires and shocks. In 2001, top ITS times were in the mid-1:02's. That's 1.5 seconds slower than the current track record. Same kind of cars.

[Eric Parham]

-delete-

[Eric Parham]

What's the fastest 2L 16v lap at WGI or LRP that you can recall?[/b]

Found some archives. The ITS GTI 16V that I was thinking of may not have had a working transponder in 2000, as "no time" is the theme there. In 2001, I see a 105.1 at Lime Rock on 7/4/01 (http://www.mohud-scca.org/Race/2001/.../results2.html). I actually remember that day, but perhaps I got the times confused with another GTI that used to run ITE. In that case, the 1:02 or 1:03 is simply irrelevant since the ITE car was well beyond ITS prep.

You also have to take into account the timeframe. ... Understand that all classes continue to develop and get faster with continued development and newer technologies - like tires and shocks. In 2001, top ITS times were in the mid-1:02's. That's 1.5 seconds slower than the current track record. Same kind of cars.[/b]

All good points. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have bothered trying to use the GTI 2.0L 16V as a reference in guessing the potential for the Scirocco 1.8L 16V. It's probably more accurate extrapolating to ITA from more recent ITB and ITC Scirocco times with lower hp engines -- fewer variables.

[shwah]

The only 1.8 16v that I had much contact with on the race track ( I have had a few Sciroccos on the street ) was Chuck Mathis' ITA car. It was a very competitive car at the time, and while it is ancient history, I don't know of any other VWs that won ITA at ARRC.

We were just talking about different classes a few weeks ago, and were thinking that the 1.8 Golf could probably still be a winner today if prepped right.

[Eric Parham]

We were just talking about different classes a few weeks ago, and were thinking that the 1.8 Golf could probably still be a winner today if prepped right.[/b]

Do you mean the Golf/GTI 1.8 8V in ITB or the GTI 1.8 16V in ITA? If anyone really wanted to try another 100% build on an ITB Golf 1.8 8V at this point, I may have stumbled onto the proverbial one-in-a-million stock part to make it happen.

[shwah]

Do you mean the Golf/GTI 1.8 8V in ITB or the GTI 1.8 16V in ITA? If anyone really wanted to try another 100% build on an ITB Golf 1.8 8V at this point, I may have stumbled onto the proverbial one-in-a-million stock part to make it happen.
[/b]

I meant a 1.8 16v in ITA.

[Eric Parham]

I think these cars are heavy as listed. *I* think the 2.0 should be around 2375, the 1.8 Golf should be 2180, the Rocco aroud 2230...all based in un-debated 'process' numbers.[/b]

I've combed the data a little better this time. Although I'm not certain about ANY VW 16V efforts, I have to agree with Andy at least to say that no all-out Scirocco 16V efforts have ever appeared in the Northeast. Perhaps I asked for a little too much with the 2150, especially considering some of the faster/hp tracks elsewhere. I'm going to round up a non-sunroof contestant just in case, and if it drops to 2230 lbs or better I'll see you bums in ITA next year.

Now, considering the extra weight and all, which is better: cryo-treated hubs or shot-peened hubs? Should they be "seasoned" first or straight off the shelf?

[Eric Parham]

What's the fastest 2L 16v lap at WGI or LRP that you can recall?
[/b]

Still haven't found much for 16Vs, but here's what I've done in the 8V Sciroccos:

2000 ITB Scirocco 1.8L 8V on Goodyear GSCS:
Lime Rock: 1:04.3 (24"-drafting a Volvo, normally in the 1:05s)
WGI Long: 2:26.5
WGI Short: 1:35.5 (probably drafting a Volvo and/or BMW)

2006 ITC Scirocco 1.7L on Hoosier R6:
Lime Rock: 1:05.2 (12"-drafting a Miata, normally in the 1:06s)
WGI Long: 2:28.7


The following might be possible with an all-out effort for next year (assuming reduction from 2320 to 2230 lbs):

2007 ITA Scirocco 1.8L 16V on ???:
Lime Rock: 1:02.7 (guesstimate, lap record is 1:01.4 by Andy )
WGI Long: 2:23.5 (guesstimate, lap record is 2:17.9 by Greg )

[StephenB]

You boys just gotta get outta your pouty "going to the garden and eat worms" attitudes and MAKE IT HAPPEN. Show me a max-out build on a Golf (and that means probably spending $25k minimum and running serious shocks instead of off-the-shelf Bilsteins, 9# wheels instead of stock VWs, new Hoosiers, etc) driven by an experienced, skilled driver that's failed to consistenly run at the front, and we can chat. Otherwise...
[/b]

This always blows my mind... I think we should start ITAC (C for regional Club racing) with a buy on car set at 10,000.00 Afterall this is regional amatuer racing isn't it?

[Eric Parham]

This always blows my mind... I think we should start ITAC (C for regional Club racing) with a buy on car set at 10,000.00 Afterall this is regional amatuer racing isn't it?[/b]

I know how you feel. When faced with the possibility of building a brand new car model from scratch recently, my wife wanted to know how much I planned to spend (both time and money). With my Sciroccos, I've been gradually collecting parts and clues since I got my first one almost 20 years ago. Thus, the expenditures have been gradual over time and easier to handle, if they're even noticed. That's actually the main reason why I ultimately abandoned the ITS GTI VR6 that I'd been planning. With a Scirocco 16V in ITA, I'd hope to be able to recycle many of the same parts, like the suspension, for example. That would significantly reduce the current-year outlay. Frankly, if I had enough cash on hand to build a totally new model from scratch, I think I might just buy a SRF and forget about the rest. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on who you ask) I just don't have that much free cash, and probably won't now that we've started the "education fund" for the little one.

[JimLill]

Eric,

as to 16V VW, I know John and George Morris have run Golfs in ITA for awhile. I think George has retired his after the rollover in Sep 2006.