Question about race groupings

[Ed Funk]

Steph wants to start a "Where's Tim now?" thread. I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a well thought out and prepared Plymouth Horizon in itb. Probably be a sleeper!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tim and I had plenty of time to chat this past weekend on Friday during the second rain qualifier. I happen to know for a fact that he has 4 donors at his house now ready for a proper build. His current choices are:

Pontiac Grand Am (quad 4) for ITS
Buick Skyhawk V6 for ITA
Fiat Brava 2.0 for ITB
Dodge Colt (RWD) for ITC

2007 is gonna rock!

[Ed Funk]

Man, I wish we had ITT (truck) in the NE, so we could see Tim in a Dodge Dakota, complete with snow plow! In that he wouldn't mind being grouped with SSM! Yeah, I'll probably spend the winter beating up on SSM

[ner88]

Doc, I get it, guilty by association. He's also an SCCA member just like you!
Ed, If I'm not mistaken, Brian has retired.

Jerry

[Andy Bettencourt]

Here is what I will be presenting to Brian at the NER CRB meeting this Friday in hopes that he will bring it (or a modified version of it) to the NARRC committee for consideration:

Proposal for new Run Groups for 2007 NARRC/NERRC season

<div align="right"></div>
All &#39;Showroom Stock" cars together

[Doc Bro]

Here is what I will be presenting to Brian at the NER CRB meeting this Friday in hopes that he will bring it (or a modified version of it) to the NARRC committee for consideration:

Proposal for new Run Groups for 2007 NARRC/NERRC season

<div align="right">

All &#39;Showroom Stock" cars together
[/b][/quote]


Andy,

That looks really good to me. I think keeping the Miata&#39;s separate is a great idea. I know for many the allure of a Miata is double -dipping. If I drove one I&#39;d D-D every weekend. Group 6 looks like it&#39;d be most likely to oversubscribe to me.

I like it!!

R

[StephenB]

Andy,

Can you propose to add 1 lapfor ITB if we run with the ITR/ITS/ITB group. we always get the shaft and loose a lap at almost every race. We pay the same entry fee for tha same # of laps. OK OK I know that will never happen.



but How about split starts so we can race without the Midpack ITS drivers messing with us. a few drivers in the midpack like that Black BMW (The one without the rear window at NHIS) are terrible drivers and cause issues with the front running ITB cars. I would rather have a split start and pass the slower cars and never catch the ITS cars that are doing the same lap times. It would also allow the 3rd place ITB car actually have a chance at being in the hunt for number 1. All to often we have 6 or 7 cars stuffed in between pos 1-3 and usually the top cars in B are all within .5-1 sec of eachother. 3 rows back makes it difficult to catch the leader if your all turning the same lap times.

Personally I don&#39;t like running with ITS at all, the leaders are great when they lap us but midpack is a tough place to be.

Stephen

PS: I had inquired about a split start at LRP but since raymond qualified pole with an ITB car ITB would have been first and ITS second. I didn&#39;t think that would help anyone on track.

[Ed Funk]

Amen, Doc Bro I like it too!!

Dave, maybe we should put a hold on future new classes. Seems we should be able to fit just ablut every interesting car into an existing class. Oh wait, there is one---my fathers &#39;63 Pontiac, if I can dig it out of the barn and find one more driver (?are you on, Tim?), we can have SS Star Chief, and run with SSM

[FastM3]

I don&#39;t know.... Maybe this would work.

Let ITC have their own run group during lunch. 4.2 cars should be manageable.

Use a standing start. This eliminates need for the pace car !

All the other groups can stay the way they were for 2006 which seemed to work fine

Have one corner worker monitor the race from a booth at the top of the stands. This can be a SM/SSM competitor selected randomly on a rotating basis.

Problem solved Let&#39;s Party

[Andy Bettencourt]

No way Steph. SSM is a Regional class just like ITE, SPO, SPU and a variety of open wheel specials. If we can fit them, so be it. They put up 5X what ITC does in terms of participation. They have just as much right to a run group as you do - in a REGIONAL scenario. When the classes in the GCR start to get big enough to mess with the groups - THEN I see some clamping down on undersubsrcibed, regional-only stuff.

Everyone in IT has the opportunity to double dip. When was the last time I ran in ITE? Never - can&#39;t afford two race groups. Just because we don&#39;t doesn&#39;t mean we can&#39;t. SM&#39;s are faster than SSM&#39;s. They look like the same car but they are not.

ITC isn&#39;t shrinking because of SSM. It&#39;s was just as strong this year as it was the last few years. It MAY shrink in the future but if you love ITC, you love it. ITA is strong because the cars are new, diversified, easy to find parts for and popular - it&#39;s not simply a ebb and a flow.

Open wheel guys complaining!!!???!!! They ought to look toward their own house. When I see "Wings and Things" (FA, FC, FF, CFC, FSCCA, SRSCCA, DSR, CSR, S2000, FM) put up UNDER 20 cars in total for 9 or so classes, it makes me wonder if that run group could have been better utilized. At least the Miata guys are putting up the numbers.

Miata club of America. BS. Happens to be a great car with great support that &#39;fits&#39; in many spots. Oh ya, people actually want to race them. You could run a VW Golf in just as many classes sans SSM - but if you had 20 guys in ITB Golf III&#39;s who wanted to run &#39;Spec III&#39;, we would accomodate them as well. It&#39;s about what people want to run - and the numbers speak for themselves.

Now - having babbled all that, I have often thought about the idea of a Restricted Regional. First start with cars that are NOT eligible to attend a National race. IT, SSM and all the Regional classes. Add in SM, SRF or whatever other largely subscribed classes you want - goal - 4 run groups and maximum track time. Raise the entry fee to National-level money and see if it works.

[gran racing]

Right there we have the C field dwindling down to &#39;marginal&#39; entries thanks in part to the race group that they run in.[/b]

Do you REALLY think that’s the case, or are you just writing out of Miata frustration? Come on, that bs. Remember that you need to think nationally here, not just the region you race with. In other regions, ITC races with classes other than Miatas – are those classes also the reason for decline in ITC nationally?

If you run well enough, you race. If you don&#39;t, well see my comments above.[/b]

You have to be joking, right? Is a front runners entry fee worth more than a back markers? Funny, many of the back markers don’t have as much of a budget as front running drivers yet those would be the people who this would hurt financially. Others are new and still have much to learn; yeah, let’s take away their track time.

If the club&#39;s philosophy is to add classes all the time, then maybe we SHOULD start eliminating some of the classes that are dying.[/b]

That’s kinda funny considering the class you race in.

It would be nice to have more restricted regionals though.

[FastM3]

I don&#39;t know.... Maybe this would work.

Let ITC have their own run group during lunch. 4.2 cars should be manageable.

Use a standing start. This eliminates need for the pace car !

All the other groups can stay the way they were for 2006 which seemed to work fine

Have one corner worker monitor the race from a booth at the top of the stands. This can be a SM/SSM competitor selected randomly on a rotating basis.

Problem solved Let&#39;s Party


Phil SSM / SM / ITA or ITA / SSM / SM

[lateapex911]

Yea, bashing Mazda and saying that they are lining the national office&#39;s pockets, and that&#39;s the reason our run groups suck is pretty darn funny.

It has NOTHING to do with Miatas. Except that Mazda made a car that fits into the SPORTS car club of America better than most, is cheap, plentiful, and more reliable than nearly any car preceding it. Oh...it drives great too. No wonder it&#39;s popular. heck if it wasn&#39;t such a girlie car, i bet the numbers would be even higher! (sorry)

Bottom line is that in some ways, all the Miatas make life better. Imagine having 300 entries at Lime Rock, and having them all be individual cars! We&#39;d be paddocking up on the hill!

As to regional classes, like SSM, it&#39;s VERY hard to find fault with a Regional class that out subscribes nearly EVERY single Nationaly recognized class. They put the numbers up, they pay their way, and they take less resources than many others, so we have NO right to complain about it.

If the issue is running with other classes that you don&#39;t like, (like the formula car guys have to EVEY race), the best solution is to "sell" your class to others. The bigger it gets, the less room in a group for others.

The strong survive, the others have to adapt.

[gran racing]

Dave, read some of the comments made earlier from other people in ITC not wanting to be grouped in with SM/SSM. I didn&#39;t make it up. You can get pissed at me and call it bs if you want, but it&#39;s out here and I didn&#39;t put it there. [/b]

Your statements were much broader in scope than two people left ITC because they were grouped with SM/SSM. I have a tough time believing that is a significant motivator for people moving away or simply not entering ITC. (In ITB and ITA we&#39;ve been grouped with SM/SSM, so it&#39;s not just ITC)

Steph, if your car is getting beaten up by others doing stupid stuff, you need to speak with the driver and if that doesn&#39;t resolve things file a protest.

[Ed Funk]

Dave, speaking with the driver rarely does any good. I tried to speak with an SSM driver at NHIS who had forced me over the curb (all 4 wheels) in 6. What I got from it was a group of SSM drivers telling me that I was supposed to get out of their way and to not try to pass them in corners.

Filing a protest isn&#39;t very helpful either. A few years ago we went to pick up protest paperwork to protest a fellow itb driver that we felt had purposely hit Steph to spin her, he wasn&#39;t very good at that either, because he then drove into her left front tweaking the frame and costing big bucks to fix. As we were picking up the papers we were told by a steward that he wouldn&#39;t hear the protest! He knew nothing about what we were there for, just that he didn&#39;t want to hear us. When we got to the witness room this same steward tried to exclude me from the room. I had to point out to him that as the entrant, I had the right to be there and that I wouldn&#39;t leave. He also told us that we needed to handle that type of thing in the paddock, when I told him I had a baseball bat in my trailer and asked if that was what he meant by "handle it in the paddock", he decided to hear the protest.

A few years ago we decided that enough was too much and started racing out of the NE, we found drivers that could drive, workers that could work, stewards that knew their job and just generally a pleasant experience. When we came back we were greeted by Kathy Barnes who wanted to know where we&#39;d been, we explained and were assured that things were different now. I&#39;m not too sure about that, I&#39;m sure that some will be happy if we pack up and leave again, I won&#39;t be as by and large the people here are good. But I won&#39;t be bullied and I know that Steph won&#39;t be bullied, even by Dave Lyons (the big tough guy that brought Hilda Richardson, aka "Grid Grannie", to tears a few years ago).

Maybe I should walk away from the keyboard for a day or two!

[Doc Bro]

I understand the frustration that the Funk&#39;s are feeling, however you can&#39;t please all the people all the time. The fact is the only way to appease all the masses is if EVERYONE had their own run group. At that point the only complaint would be that there wasn&#39;t enough competition and that the race weekend took a week to complete. It&#39;s an impossibility. Race cars get torn up....it stinks but it happens. Look at the NHIS ITA race earier in the year. If that wreck had been caused by an SM or SSM evryone in ITA would be complaining. Instead it was caused by a fellow ITA (who is a total bone head!!! ) and even that caused speculation and fits of rage. No one wants their stuff beat up it adds way too much to the expense BUT, it&#39;s a risk and if anyone is uncomfortable with the risks to themselves or their cars or their wallets, than wheel to wheel racing may not be a perfect fit for them. I&#39;m not inviting anyone to leave at all but, that&#39;s just the way (IMHO) that most will view this thread.

Sorry,
R

[StephF]

I understand the frustration that the Funk&#39;s are feeling, however you can&#39;t please all the people all the time. The fact is the only way to appease all the masses is if EVERYONE had their own run group. At that point the only complaint would be that there wasn&#39;t enough competition and that the race weekend took a week to complete. It&#39;s an impossibility. Race cars get torn up....it stinks but it happens. Look at the NHIS ITA race earier in the year. If that wreck had been caused by an SM or SSM evryone in ITA would be complaining. Instead it was caused by a fellow ITA (who is a total bone head!!! ) and even that caused speculation and fits of rage. No one wants their stuff beat up it adds way too much to the expense BUT, it&#39;s a risk and if anyone is uncomfortable with the risks to themselves or their cars or their wallets, than wheel to wheel racing may not be a perfect fit for them. I&#39;m not inviting anyone to leave at all but, that&#39;s just the way (IMHO) that most will view this thread.

Sorry,
R
[/b]

Rob: I&#39;ve been there done that, understand the risks, stuff happens in racing. That&#39;s something we both know well. You can&#39;t always stop something from happening.

I&#39;ve raced with Spec Racers in the Moroso 24 hour race, at night. (now that was....interesting...)
I&#39;ve run test days in an ITB car with Rob Dyson in his World Cup (or whatever it is) car out there too.
I&#39;ve run with Show Stock, ITB, ITC, ITA, Spec 7, etc. I&#39;ve been hit, spun, tagged, etc. Most of the time it&#39;s just one of those things. People&#39;s brakes go away. Their tires get too many heat cycles. Oil on the track. Driver error. Stuff happens. Sometimes it&#39;s avoidable, sometimes it isn&#39;t.

It would be wonderful if we all had our own group, but that&#39;s a fantasy. And I don&#39;t care if I run with other groups. And, if I am reading the posts correctly, the other people in our group are expressing the same opinion.

All I want is to be IN A GROUP THAT IS SIMILAR IN HANDLING TO MINE. I don&#39;t care if I lose a lap. I don&#39;t care if it&#39;s a huge field. I don&#39;t care if I&#39;m a back marker. I don&#39;t mind if it&#39;s rough and tumble racing. I can rub fenders, although I prefer to race cleanly with people. It&#39;s more fun that way anyway.

What&#39;s getting frustrating is the bunching up, blocking and chopping on the corners and being unable to get by on the straight. It&#39;s bunching up our group to the point that stuff happens, such as the NARRC-offs showed.

And I&#39;m not bashing Mazdas. This IS happening in our group, for whatever reason. And I&#39;m sure it happens in other race groups with dissimilar cars too.

I let other race groups by, especially if I can tell it&#39;s either a faster group or the race leaders. I won&#39;t move off line in a corner, or &#39;get out of the way&#39;, but I will point them by when I have a free hand , or will hold out there to allow them through. I try to NOT interfere with someone else&#39;s race.

That isn&#39;t happening all the time to us.

Some of the people are good at not jamming us up if we are battling each other and are getting by them in the corners.

Some of them are not.

Ed and John were taken out because some midpack drivers in the other race group didn&#39;t recognize or care that these were the leaders for the other race. And Eric said he almost got taken out as well, later on.

So...tell me how this is &#39;Mazda bashing&#39; or &#39;sour grapes"? This is (at least I hope it&#39;s coming through!) a request to find out how to try to get the grouping changed to the benefit OF ALL.

I said it before and I&#39;ll say it again, I&#39;d prefer to WATCH their race anyway. With a large bag of popcorn.

[Doc Bro]

Reading between the lines Steph, it sounds like one of your points involves something that is a fleeting commodity in todays society. Common courtesy. We raced with the prod guys this year and I can&#39;t tell you how many times a SLOW guy would not offer a point. It&#39;s like they&#39;re all excited that there&#39;s someone to play with. I think that attitude permeates our sport. It&#39;s a race ....anytime, anywhere, anycar, any class- it&#39;s game on. So what if I&#39;m not on the lead lap...I raced the leader to stop him from putting me a lap down, or another lap in some cases. It&#39;s the NASCAR University of Racing for the Gifetd (spelled purposely that way).
We need more etiquette tought in our regional schools and less tough talk about "you own the corner,and, it&#39;s all racetrack it&#39;s just not all paved." I think that that sends the wrong message to a beginnner.

.02

R

[Eric Parham]

I do think that SM and SSM would ideally be in the same run group, but here I&#39;m trying to compromise. I don&#39;t know if groups 1 and 2 need adjusting, or if group 4 would be over-subscribed. I also don&#39;t see any way to break the GTs (on slicks) out of group 7.

G1: FF, CF, NCF, FC, CFC, FSCCA, FM, F1000, FV, F500

G2: SRF, SRSCCA, DSR, CSR, S2000, FA

G3: ITR, ITS, PD

G4: ITA, ITB, ITC

G5: SM, T3, SSB

G6: SSM, T4, SSC

G7: T1, T2, AS, ITE, PB, GT1, GT2, SPO

G8: GT3, EP, FP, GP, HP, GTL, SPU, Legends

[RSTPerformance]

wow, this is an imature thread that keeps going in circles by everyone... personaly I have a problem with every driver other than AS drivers and ITB drivers

To keep on original topic....

First, I have absolutely nothing against miatas, but I do think that SM and SSM should be classed together. The group will be oversubscribed but that is ok. Those in the top 5 points should get an "auto entry" and those who do not qualify should run a constilation race with the ITA/ITC group.

some problems solved (such as similar cars running with each other) but not all. Honestly though to me it makes the most sence, and it pisses everyone off not just some off !!!

1) The SM&#39;s and SSM&#39;s who "need the most improvement" will still be with ITC
2) No double dipping (how does that term work?) in SM and SSM

Raymond "lets stop the , its old and the points have been made" Blethen