Question about race groupings

[lateapex911]

Oh, and Jake, Steph has Wednesdays off!! So I feel much better now!!
[/b]

Sigh...TMI

(Too Much Information...)

[Eric Parham]

Andy's correct. Given the number of classes we currently have to squeeze into a race weekend, there's no way to make everyone happy.

Ed's also correct, speed differential is fine as long as two different classes aren't grouped together that have opposite speed differentials for straights versus corners.

One partial solution is to reduce the number of classes. Why do we have so many Miata classes anyway?
Here's an idea for a single class/group adjusted so that a variety of cars can be competitive:
http://www.casc.on.ca/documents/regulation...ulator2006.htm#

Another partial solution is to group the classes based on similar cornering speeds rather than on lap times or even lap time differentials. After all, passing on the straights is easier for everyone and significantly reduces the chances of interclass incidents. People shouldn't mind being behind someone who corners at the same speed. The faster car can simply pass on the next straight without much loss of time. The IT classes generally have similar cornering speeds (except for the 6" versus 7" rim differences). Such cornering speeds are generally much greater than the SS classes for obvious reasons. Thus, in an ideal world, no IT classes should ever be grouped with any SS classes (whether SSB, SSC, SSM or even SM).

Some folks (e.g., Tim K.) have opted not to run a class that is to be grouped with a conflicting class. Other folks may simply not put their best foot forward (e.g., I have a replacement ITC shell, which is actually straight, that I decided not to run this year mainly because of the SSM grouping). I'm really not complaining. I myself had a fun year and learned a lot in the process. I felt that most of the SSM drivers really made an effort to co-exist on the track. They're there for the same reasons that we are! There were some oversized egos near the front, some admitted beginners near the back, and a real mix in between, but I took it as a challenge (and, for the record, I actually preferred racing with the SSMs over the SSB/SSCs that I've run with in the past). I am very disturbed that my competition was unfairly eliminated from the final race by a conflicting class car, and I am also concerned that the ITC fields were artificially reduced during the year due to others not wanting to run with the conflicting class cars.

I hope the situation can be improved for next year, and improved in time for people who might otherwise avoid ITC for fear of being grouped again with a conflicting class (opposite speed differentials for straights versus corners).

[ner88]

So a guy driving a Miata drives over your trailer door and now all Miata drivers are bad?
What color drivers suit was he wearing?
Anyone ever go to the Glen and the bog at F1 races years ago? Crowds would stand around the huge bon fire and yell "The other side sucks".....
Welcome to the SM CCA, get over it and we might let you stay and play! :P

[RKramden]

A great bunch of ideas, but now ir's time to make the schedule work.

Here is the challange:

Come up with 8 race groups that fit in all the regional classes, and based on the car counts this year,
none of the groups can have over 40 cars. Everybody gets to race. We are a club.

You cannot mix widely different car types in the same field. GT1 with Formula Atlantic is a no-no.

8 groups, not 9, because it has to fit into a one day regional at Lime Rock. If you make it 9 groups, then everyone gets hosed because all the extra down time between groups in addition to another group will result in 10 minutes of qualifying and 15 minutes of racing. Not a good deal.

So, I'll start things off:

1: Wings and things: Faster formula cars and sports racers.
2: Slow formula cars.
3: Big Bore (Including ITE, SPO)
4: Small bore (and SPU)

So, in the last 4 groups (or mixed into the above groups), get Spec Racers, (S)SM, IT*, Touring, and Showroom Stock.

Posters here have said that where you make your speed is important, so the Touring guys shouldn't be placed in with GT cars, like they currently are, but have to be put with other "street tire" classes. If we are going to make such a big deal about that in the SM/IT groups, then it is certainly just as big a deal in the GT/Production/Touring groups. And, maybe, we need to look at spliting the Formula cars back into three groups, because the Vee's make their speed in different places than the Fords, and they are, in turn, different that the Atlantics and sports racers. (See, it is a real rats nest.)

And where does ITR go?

So, take your best shot at it, base it on real numbers, and figure out how to pack it all in.

[Eric Parham]

A daunting task indeed! I'd have to start by assigning lower priority to all of the non-GCR classes in order to make room for the real SCCA classes. Note that SSM isn't one of them If anything, SSM should be a subset of SM that runs in the same group (like the NCF subset of FF that stays in the same run group).

[Andy Bettencourt]

A very unscientific calculation shows these averages (based on pre-registration figures) this year for NARRC events:

ITS: 18.8
ITA: 20.8
ITB: 13.2
ITC: 4.2
SM: 24.6
SSM: 19.5

Touring and SS have so few entries at Regionals I think they can go almost anywhere. ITR will be VERY small at first and should be combined with ITS. T1 and T2 can run with Big bore. So:

1. ITR-ITS-ITB gets you to around 35 cars if ITR shows 3ish.
2. ITA-ITC-T3 gets you to around 30.
3. You put SRF with Small bore, SPU and Legends (SB gets under 10 cars...SPU under 5) for around 32 cars.
4: Wings and things: Faster formula cars and sports racers.
5: Slow formula cars.
6: Big Bore (Including ITE, SPO, B Prep and D Prep)
7. SM
8. SSM-SSB-SSC

The key is G3. All these cars are very similar in that they have fiberglass everything. Similar mindsets.

What am I missing?

[Eric Parham]

I was wondering until I looked up the cars in T3. Yup, you guessed it, more Miatas. Maybe I'll just get one too and run it in FOUR (4) different race groups per day
Don't forget that we're probably getting the new Prepared B & D groups next year too.

[Ed Funk]

Andy, looks good to me, we'll e-mail Brian and encourage him to try to get groups as similar to this as possible. Everyone who cares should contact Brian also. His e-mail address is in front of Pit Talk.

Eric, B and D should fit well with Andy's groups 3 and/or 6.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Part of the problem with the SSM/SM guys and gals, is that they have not personally experienced what the "C" drivers are experiencing, regarding agressive and sometimes thoughtless (read that dangerous)driving. Just a thought, but seeing is beleiving. It took Thomas putting his fingers in Christ's holes, for him to beleive what his friends were telling him. Maybe we shoud consider a little seeing is believing for the "fast and furious." I felt there was always a lot to be learned about courteous driving, running with faster cars, similiar to the NASA run groups. Maybe lack of "safe" run groups for the Miatas would teach them safety - sort of like welping a puppy off the nipple.

Also, wanted everyone to know I just picked up a Bildon prepared ITC Beetle - I'm coming back to double dip in ITC - Miata or no Miata.

[JLawton]

No question, Miata has it share but look at the numbers I would bet the ratio of bad drivers is the same in any class, remember it only takes one ITC driver to make 25% of the field bad( at least at most races).
[/b]

Nope, gotta disagree with you there. I think there are three issues that make the Miata's they way they are:

1) Easy class for beginners to get into. Plunk down $10K (or have daddy plunk down $10K) and go racing. Lots of "rookies".
2) The cars are so evenly matched. Tough to pass other Miata's resulting in lots of high risk passes.
3) This I have heard from people who have driven both IT cars and Miatas (not me). The Miata is easy to drive to within 9/10s. Makes a driver feel like Mario. However, going 10/10s ain't so easy. Inexpereinced drivers feel no fear in trying to take a Miata to 10/10s even though there skill level isn't there....

Also, wanted everyone to know I just picked up a Bildon prepared ITC Beetle - I'm coming back to double dip in ITC - Miata or no Miata.
[/b]

Really?? No kidding??


Yeah, riiiiiiight!! <_< Hope you carry the guilt of this story into the ARRC!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Also, wanted everyone to know I just picked up a Bildon prepared ITC Beetle - I&#39;m coming back to double dip in ITC - Miata or no Miata. [/b]

Have you no shame?

Let&#39;s not get to down on Miata-land. This topic could be overlaid onto the one a month back about ITA - from the Prod guys view. SM-SSM have gotten much better about contact when racing with themselves - because they are evolving as drivers who are learning how to race in such close quarters. I can say the same is happening for me - we all continuously improve if we try and learn something from each race.

Keeping run-groups the same from year to year fosters inter group confidence and knowledge of each car and drivers habits. Besides, if there were 45-50 of any other make model out there it would be the same thing.

[gran racing]

Yeah, and I&#39;m building a Saturn.

[Ed Funk]

Steph wants to start a "Where&#39;s Tim now?" thread. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised to see him in a well thought out and prepared Plymouth Horizon in itb. Probably be a sleeper!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tim and I had plenty of time to chat this past weekend on Friday during the second rain qualifier. I happen to know for a fact that he has 4 donors at his house now ready for a proper build. His current choices are:

Pontiac Grand Am (quad 4) for ITS
Buick Skyhawk V6 for ITA
Fiat Brava 2.0 for ITB
Dodge Colt (RWD) for ITC

2007 is gonna rock!

[Doc Bro]

So a guy driving a Miata drives over your trailer door and now all Miata drivers are bad?

[/b]

Nope,....that&#39;s not what I said....don&#39;t misquote because you have a dog in the fight.

What I said was that kind of crap doesn&#39;t help the plight of the SM/SSM crowd. Many racers have labeled the SM/SSM crowd (rightly or wrongly), incidents like that don&#39;t help either opinion.

R

[Ed Funk]

Man, I wish we had ITT (truck) in the NE, so we could see Tim in a Dodge Dakota, complete with snow plow! In that he wouldn&#39;t mind being grouped with SSM! Yeah, I&#39;ll probably spend the winter beating up on SSM

[ner88]

Doc, I get it, guilty by association. He&#39;s also an SCCA member just like you!
Ed, If I&#39;m not mistaken, Brian has retired.

Jerry

[RKramden]

A daunting task indeed! I&#39;d have to start by assigning lower priority to all of the non-GCR classes in order to make room for the real SCCA classes. Note that SSM isn&#39;t one of them If anything, SSM should be a subset of SM that runs in the same group (like the NCF subset of FF that stays in the same run group).
[/b]

Got to disagree with you here.

First, at most races, NCF runs with FVee, FF runs with the faster cars. Maybe you didn&#39;t notice that. It makes room for other classes in the fast formula group.

Second, SSM pays the same entry fee you do, and it is an officially regionally recognized class, and they have just as much right to run on the track as you do. Just because their rules come from a whole lot of local interest rather than interest on the left coast or down south, or in Cendiv doesn&#39;t mean they have less right to run. They pay the same entry fee, they get treated the same.

The region has had a policy of giving racers a class if they come up with the rules and have 2 or more cars on the average at all the races. And that includes trophies at each race and awards at the end of the year. Same goes for NARRC, but I&#39;m not sure about the number of cars required. In any case, SSM easily meets that requirement and is a class recognized by the NARRC committee and the region.

If you want to start by dropping the marginal (e.g. small) classes first, maybe we should talk about getting rid of ITC.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Here is what I will be presenting to Brian at the NER CRB meeting this Friday in hopes that he will bring it (or a modified version of it) to the NARRC committee for consideration:

Proposal for new Run Groups for 2007 NARRC/NERRC season

<div align="right"></div>
All &#39;Showroom Stock" cars together

[Doc Bro]

Here is what I will be presenting to Brian at the NER CRB meeting this Friday in hopes that he will bring it (or a modified version of it) to the NARRC committee for consideration:

Proposal for new Run Groups for 2007 NARRC/NERRC season

<div align="right">

All &#39;Showroom Stock" cars together
[/b][/quote]


Andy,

That looks really good to me. I think keeping the Miata&#39;s separate is a great idea. I know for many the allure of a Miata is double -dipping. If I drove one I&#39;d D-D every weekend. Group 6 looks like it&#39;d be most likely to oversubscribe to me.

I like it!!

R