300ZX In ITR

[benspeed]

OK - I was surfing for some info on the Porsches in ITR and those are going to be very expensive. Looking at another car I love, the 300ZX and am wondering if anybody knows if this car is being raced in any class and if there is a shop in the NE who can give me some input on the car.

Looks like it might be overweight, but if the brakes are great and if IT trim can put it around 250 HP I might give it a shot.

Got any help for me? A nice running car can be found for $4-5K.

Cheers,

[Joe Harlan]

OK - I was surfing for some info on the Porsches in ITR and those are going to be very expensive. Looking at another car I love, the 300ZX and am wondering if anybody knows if this car is being raced in any class and if there is a shop in the NE who can give me some input on the car.

Looks like it might be overweight, but if the brakes are great and if IT trim can put it around 250 HP I might give it a shot.

Got any help for me? A nice running car can be found for $4-5K.

Cheers,
[/b]

Long and short of it....NO

The brakes would be fine for racing a 2500 lb car with that HP, The T2 350 at 3300lbs and 287hp had twice the brakes in the brembo package and is just decent W/ABS. I am willing to say these cars will hardly be faster than most really good ITS cars and not up to speed for the class they are put in.

That's just an honest take on it and I love these cars. They were and will be the best bang for the buck on a quick fun weekend car to drive.

[benspeed]

DANG! Great car too. I've only seen only one raced - it was a white turbo in GT2 and it ran well at LRP but was probably 2300 pounds.

Edit - turbo chassis - NA motor

[JeffYoung]

I think with proper ducting, and perhaps a less agressive pad, the brakes on this car (given their size) should work for a 30 minute sprint race. You may not be able to use them as hard as the BMW guys though.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I know 2 things: Joe knows Nissans and weight sucks in a racecar.

BUT: This car will be POWERFUL. VERY powerful. This class is a study in physics. Lightweight/low powered cars, medium weight and decent powered cars, and heavy weights with big power. I think there are great choices and there will be precious few tracks that have the diversity to allow every car to shine. Pick a car for your local tracks!

Having said that, this car has 280mm brakes Front and 297mm rears. They are decent size but certainly smallish for a car in excess of 3200lbs. Proper ducting will certainly be needed.

What is the history of this car in SSA? A quick Google search showed the car was podium material in 1996...

[hunter164]

Im already car committed. I dont mind being the guinea pig. It'd be alot more fun if there were a few more around next season thouhg. We'll see how it does...

[JeffYoung]

A lot more than rotor size matters as well, as I am finding out.

Vented? I think the fronts are, are the rears?

Wheels size and opening? A lot of cooling happens, or can happen, this way as well?

And, again as I am learning, pad choice? It is possible to run a less agressive pad that generates less heat. You won't get as much stopping power but you can make the brakes last.

The car is heavy, I agree with that, and it will take work to make the brakes work. But, I'm leaning towards one of these cars as well, so I may be a guinea pig too.

Greg, where are you located?

[hunter164]

I'm up in the North East. We garage up on the MA/NH line. I'm learning on my own at this point as the rest of the team is running 240sx's. I've had the car for a year now. Did a school in it, and a couple track days. Next year I'm going to try to run a full NHIS season, mostly due to budgetary constraints, and expand from there. The car is definitely alot of fun to drive. Hopefully this winter we can make some big strides in set up and the "minor" details.

[JeffYoung]

I am still trying to decide between the 300ZX (fairly cheap and plentiful), the 944S2 (not cheap, not plentiful) and the Supra (which I think will be class king but is REALLY not cheap and REALLY not plentiful). Necessity will probably push me towards the 300ZX although I have always really liked the cars.

I'll let you know if I go the 300ZX route and if so, stay in touch. We can share info, mistakes, bloops and blunders.

[hunter164]

Definitely let me know if you follow me down the 330zx path. Most valuable lesson learned to date: make sure you have the lower tranny mounting gussets on the car or you WILL crack the bell housing. not necessary on some cars, VERY necessary on this one.

[DavidM]

Brakes will be an issue. I tracked my 95 twin turbo a couple times and man does it take a while to get slowed down (compared to my 240). The car is heavy and the brakes are too small IMO for the weight. Your best bet would be to find a slicktop car, but those are extremely rare. Many people have tried to get the weight of the T-top cars down, but a lot of it is in the frame and can't be removed. There was a story on one of the Z forums where a guy hit a guard rail head on at 65 and he walked away. Strong cars, but heavy. I'd love to race one, but I think the weight is going to be too much of a handycap.

David

[JeffYoung]

David, when you tracked your car, was the issue:

1. It just didn't stop like a lighter car OR

2. The brake system could not dissipate the heat adequately resulting boiled fluid, melted caliper seals, etc.?

No. 1 is something you can deal with on track. Just a racing disadvantage for the car. No. 2 is a fundamental design flaw that PREVENTS you from racing/finishing races (ask me how I know).

If it is 2, I agree, the car should be avoided. If it is 1, I can live with that.

[lateapex911]

Jeff, better get on the stick...I just picked up a nice LSD trans for my S2.... Cheap parts are out there, just gotta dig a bit!

[Joe Harlan]

Well thanks Andy, The fact is that I have raced on these brakes at 2700lbs and they will not last long.
plenty of pad just no rotor. making weight won't be an issue cause this thing has 75 pounds of rotors on it.


This car will end up a tweener and thats about it. I asked for the car in ITS with a restrictor at about this weight and it would have been a bitchen ride because it could be competitive.

96 was a long time ago and I would be curious what was on the stage with it at the time.

Anyway whats done is done and I would be happy to help info wise or parts wise any one that wants to try one of these but with the understanding it will be a mid packer most places.

PS: Less agressive pads would not be the proper answer to any car with poor brakes. More agressive and more service is the only right way to do it.

Thats like because a car is loose you mess up the front end to give it balance yet end up slower overall.

[JeffYoung]

Surprising to me. I still think the car is on paper one of the three or four to beat. Good aero (the cars had 150 mph top end stock!), good power, good handling. One weakness, apparently, and that is brakes. Joe, when you say not enough rotor, you mean not enough rotor to keep it cool?

We'll see because it is certain that some of these will get built to the max.

Joe on the pads issue, doesn't it depend what the weakness in the braking system is? I agree that if your issue is just lack of performance, then you want as agressive a pad as you can get, and then service the pads, rotors, hubs, etc. regularly. Is this the Z's problem?

There is a second braking problem though, one that I am intimately familiar with, and that is complete inability to keep the brake assembly cool. In taht situation, using a less aggressive pad can help because you trade stopping ability for less heat generation. Does that make sense?

[Joe Harlan]

Surprising to me. I still think the car is on paper one of the three or four to beat. Good aero (the cars had 150 mph top end stock!), good power, good handling. One weakness, apparently, and that is brakes. Joe, when you say not enough rotor, you mean not enough rotor to keep it cool?

We'll see because it is certain that some of these will get built to the max.

Joe on the pads issue, doesn't it depend what the weakness in the braking system is? I agree that if your issue is just lack of performance, then you want as agressive a pad as you can get, and then service the pads, rotors, hubs, etc. regularly. Is this the Z's problem?

There is a second braking problem though, one that I am intimately familiar with, and that is complete inability to keep the brake assembly cool. In taht situation, using a less aggressive pad can help because you trade stopping ability for less heat generation. Does that make sense?
[/b]

Sorry Jeff, I understand what you are saying but I disagree. I never give up any level of performance that I can get. I do adjust my driving style to fit the issues of a given car. The end result is that the 300 could be a good car but not in ITR. I think when the top level Porkeys or Bimmers show up the 300 is an also run once again. Had the CRB put a restrictor on them and put them in ITS where they should be then I think I could have sold as many as I could build in a year.

I have driven many of these cars and race a 260HP 2700lb 240sx with these brakes and I am pretty clear on this deal. I have many hours of testing the T2 350Z at 3368 with the full Brembo package and these cars turn laps about where I would expect a good ITR car to run. Simply put at that weight the 300 is out of usable brakes and the Bimmer and the Porkies still have'em.

Good luck with this stuff and feel free to email I am finishing my new shop so I can get back to building cars but I will check in if need be.

[benspeed]

Who needs brakes - I AM BANZAI BEN!

What's the chance that weight comes off when a bunch of these car show up and get whipped?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Who needs brakes - I AM BANZAI BEN!

What's the chance that weight comes off when a bunch of these car show up and get whipped? [/b]

NONE. The only PCA that would happen would be if one of these cars (in ITR) proved to put out significantly higher or lower power that the 'process' predicted for it. If a significant amount of evidence was provided to the CRB that was easily validated, consideration for a weight change could happen. It would be an 'error' on the ITAC's part that would be corrected in the interest of class equity. On-track performance would be considered for trending and data support but in no way would be used as the primary reason for a PCA. This is IT...we will not try and balance each car on the head of a pin. We want to correct large errors in the name of fairness but what we have is an educated guessing game...and it won't get much better than that in IT.

The fact nobody can pick a clear car to have is proof to me that, on paper, these cars can race well together.

[lateapex911]

I doubt it's too good, unless there can be a case made that the car can't make it's process assumptions.

But the IT category doesn't try to balance every car on the head of a pin. Some cars will shine at some tracks, others not, due to the individual makeup of the car. vis a vis the competition.

Some tracks require little braking...others have lots of heavy braking.

Remember, NO car in any IT class is the perfect racecar...we're talking modified street cars, and we race them warts and all.

Maybe it would have made it easier for everyone if we had just made one or two cars obviously much better than the rest?!?!

[itracer]

...we will not try and balance each car on the head of a pin....
[/b]

... But the IT category doesn't try to balance every car on the head of a pin. ...
[/b]

OMG they are starting to merge into one being !

Keep up the good work.