Fiero

[benspeed]

The numbers are in and I'm a little disappointed. These are the best runs in moderately hot and humid temps for NJ. Car was run outside.

HP - 131
TQ - 165
weight 2,600 '88 model

So - now you guys gotta let me know what ya think. I still have about $3000 to go to finish this car with about $7,000 into it. This is the press forward - damn the torpedos or, let's get realistic about the competitiveness of the car, seriously, to decide if good money goes in after bad.

I'd like some of you guys to post the performance ranges of the top ITA make/model. Be accurate too, c'mon

[JeffYoung]

Well, it is the odd ball forum so I will weigh in here...

Your car in A looks a lot like mine in S. A bit down on peak power, but gobs of torque. You have another advantage with the mid engine as well.

I suspect that your car will be like mine in this regard. On tracks with shortish straights, tighter stuff, and no real long power sections like VIR and RA, you will be VERY competitive. On other tracks, you may have some issues, but still, those numbers seem pretty good for an A car to me. Get that torque to hook up and you will find that others have a HARD time passing you.

Like K man says about the Sunbelt Z cars, they "found" a lot horsepower in handling. You will need to do the same, like all of us.

Your about the same "reported" power as Andy B's Miata, higher torque than the Egg and down a bit on power up on torque to the best 240SX numbers I've seen.

I'd build it at that point. Worse case is you have a fun to drive, unique top 5 car. With a lot of development, you can win on certain tracks I think.

[iambhooper]

I think those are great numbers! You have to remember... the stock 135 number was at the flywheel, not the rear wheels... so that's a significant gain, through in the increased torque, and the lower weight, I think you have an interesting ride.

How does it stack up against the integra's... let's see:
a little more stock HP 140
less stock torque 126
and a weight about the same... I agree with Jeff. The shorter tracks will give this a good punch. Although, out'a Oak Tree, I would think the fiero would be a blast until Madison Ave or so!

I say Go For it! Remember, when you get the suspension hoooked up, and some Kumhos on it, it'll be a lot different.

hoop

[JLawton]

The
HP - 131
TQ - 165
weight 2,600 '88 model

[/b]

I'll take torque over horsepower any day........ Just stay away from Pocono!!

Go for it!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll take torque over horsepower any day........ Just stay away from Pocono!!

Go for it!! [/b]

All that without any 'real' ECU tuning...I would build it. Come on Ben, 23 cars in ITA at LRP this weekend....

[benspeed]

Awright - a good nights sleep and some words of encouragement - let the cash flow!!!!

I'm putting in the cage and we'll race this plastic disco box.

Andy - your are correct sir. The last thing for any real gain is a major chip mapping ecu tuning exercise that I have been warned isn't cheap. But that can wait. I'm sick of building and want to race against a big field. I think I'm it this weekend in SPO. Gee, I won already....

Thanks guys

PS - throw down some additional stats on the competition. I think the Saturn makes what 152HP? How about the Nissan SE-R? How about the BMW 318IS?

[Doc Bro]

Ben, I can give you the skinny on my Z3 (M44) which is the same as the 318is powerplant wise.

135hp (dynopak)136 tq. Kessler built motor, 3 different header configurations- 2 custom. Chipped ECU. Blah, blah, blah....you know the "IT" package.

The 318/z3 are no threat at 2600.

Build it!! I'd eat yellow snow for 165 tq

[RussJones]

What the hell Ben, you've been missing the IT game since you left. Welcome back.

Russ

[Andy Bettencourt]

We DO need to get some of our cars to a dyno day together. 135/136 or 131/165 on a Dynapak is supposed to be quite higher on a DynoJet. By as much as 13% (give or take) as reported in this thread from 4 months ago. Conservative estimates could have the V6 at 144whp on a DynoJet. That Z3 has REAL good power...over 145 on a DJ? It's all smoke and mirrors until we do a dyno day.

At the end of the year, lets do it! I don't care what kind of dyno we use. I will pull to CT to do it. I want the NX there, the Saturn, the Z3, the Fiero and a big-time Teg. THEN we will be able to REALLY bench race!!!

[benspeed]

I'm all in for that - my car was done on a Dynojet. Lowest HP gets to claim the top HP car?

I spent my day calling any Fiero shops with knowledge on what is left to tune this sucka - no luck finding anybody who can do anything legal.

Nobody who can flash a chip, nobody who can tell me how to lean it out a little for some extra top end.

I figure I'll have some great green flag starts and and then make my car REALLY wide.

[iambhooper]

Ben, glad your going through with it... I've been watching with grat optimism!

As for the chip, let me look around. I might still have a conection here or there who can do it. I had a guy on the west coast do my 3400 DOHC Fiero several years ago.

hoop

[JLawton]

Nobody who can flash a chip, nobody who can tell me how to lean it out a little for some extra top end.

I figure I'll have some great green flag starts and and then make my car REALLY wide.
[/b]

You should talk to the guy Greg uses for his ECU. He's not a Fiero expert but he knows his ECUs.....


You and Crazy Joe will be using the same tactic on the starts!!

[benspeed]

Thanks Hoop - figure I'll try to have this thing ready for the NARRC runoffs this year. Maybe sooner depending on the cage.

Jeff - what kind of numbers is Crazy Joe laying down? I don't think he hits the site as regularly as us online addicts.

[Doc Bro]

We DO need to get some of our cars to a dyno day together. 135/136 or 131/165 on a Dynapak is supposed to be quite higher on a DynoJet. By as much as 13% (give or take) as reported in this thread from 4 months ago. Conservative estimates could have the V6 at 144whp on a DynoJet. That Z3 has REAL good power...over 145 on a DJ? It's all smoke and mirrors until we do a dyno day.

At the end of the year, lets do it! I don't care what kind of dyno we use. I will pull to CT to do it. I want the NX there, the Saturn, the Z3, the Fiero and a big-time Teg. THEN we will be able to REALLY bench race!!!
[/b]

AB if you say the Z3 is making real good power than what's the NX making??? Stupid power?? We use the SAME dyno shop. And he's putting 156 tq down. What dyno are you getting your Miata's 145hp figure from? DPAck or Djet?


R

[Andy Bettencourt]

AB if you say the Z3 is making real good power than what's the NX making??? Stupid power?? We use the SAME dyno shop. And he's putting 156 tq down. What dyno are you getting your Miata's 145hp figure from? DPAck or Djet?


R [/b]

I love how my HP figure grows...140.7 whp on a DynoJet. I could make it read 130 or 150 depending on tons of fudge factors but we used the standard one. The NX is the king of the hill in ITA no doubt...that is why we get them all together on the same dyno so we can really go apples to apples. Local 240SX's have gone 150/155 on a DynoJet too - but they only run for a session or two! It could be fun! We can have Greg set it up.

[Doc Bro]

Andy,

Not trying to exaggerate. Sorry, Bud. I thought that number came directly from you, directly to me at NHIS. If I remember the conversation wrong I apologize. But still, Miata 139.7 (140 ) at 2380lbs vs a projected 145 (Z3) at 2600???

I do remember what you were wearing when you said it though.....


R

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is why we need to get to the same location. If you use a conservative figure of 10% (guys post shows 13%) figure then here is where you and Greg could sit:

Greg's 154hp on a DP could be 169 on a DJ.

Greg's 143ft/lbs on a DP could be 157 on a DJ.

Your 135hp on a DP could be 149 on a DJ.

Your 135ft/lbs could be 149 on a DJ.

Some math for you: Z3 2600/149hp = 17.45 2600/149ft/lbs - 17.45

1.8 Miata 2380/140 = 17.0 2380/130ft/lbs = 18.31

But it's all ficticious until we share dyno time. Oh ya, you don't have a fully programmable ECU yet right? Greg's and my numbers are based on having that so you stand to gain more as development comes.

[Doc Bro]

Andy,
While I agree with some of the things you've posted 100%, you haven't stated how YOUR number was achieved. Are we to assume DJ,? Until you say so I say no. Will you post the sheet?

Secondly, if an engine is an airpump and it comes from the factory ALMOST fully optimized than it's naive at best to think that the gains other less optimized engines have seen will apply universally. Kessler's computer projection based on CC's, combustion chamber size and all the other inputs he used to do his calculations put the motor at EXACTLY where it dynos. Coincidence....???

Thirdly, you didn't do the NX math.

Fourthly, how come your original post said 139.7 then was edited to say 140.7hp for your car? Did you really forget you cars HP #?

Fifthly, When we do our dyno day and the Miata pulls a 145 and the Z3 pulls a 138 and teh NX 150 and a teg 165, will we be adjusting the weights officially of all cars accordingly and immediately. IF no then count me out of the "Dyno Day" my time's too valuable for science projects. If yes then let's do it before the season ends so we can get to brass tacks and I can remove my ballast.

Dude, you know I respect you and consider you a friend but, you just gotta call a spade a spade. Why does a competitor NEED to spell out every detail of their development process to be taken seriously. You know Matt....enough said. The car's #'s are what they are and no Motec- shmotec is going to give it Greg's dyno sheet. Andy, you're too smart for that....and so am I.


R

[zenbutcher]

Ben,

Do it! This car is fun. I just came from a GP Midget, and my Fiero is as fun to drive.

I've only been out 2 x's so I'm slow as heck, and working out the kinks(busted rear outer ball joint last weekend).....but after I get passed by another ITA car I'll jump on mine and it'll hang with them. The torque is great.

So for me it's a matter of seat time and setting up the handling better. Need a better diff ratio, etc.

Peter B.
ITA Fiero GT

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,
While I agree with some of the things you've posted 100%, you haven't stated how YOUR number was achieved. Are we to assume DJ,? Until you say so I say no. Will you post the sheet? [/b]

Said it 4 posts above. DYNOJET.

Secondly, if an engine is an airpump and it comes from the factory ALMOST fully optimized than it's naive at best to think that the gains other less optimized engines have seen will apply universally. Kessler's computer projection based on CC's, combustion chamber size and all the other inputs he used to do his calculations put the motor at EXACTLY where it dynos. Coincidence....??? [/b]

I don't think anyone stated that all motors can make the same gains. They can't. You are at a good hp/torque number now without ECU tuning. Unless your A/F ratios are perfect across the board, then you still have work to do. Did you test different fuels? Fuel pressures? A/F ratios? If you want to class everyone by computer model, then we can run some of those numbers! It would make for some interesting comparisons for sure.

Thirdly, you didn't do the NX math.[/b]

The NX is certainly a powerhouse. Since it's FWD, it is tough to compare because it gets additional 'allowances' in minimum weight for that. It has it's strengths for sure.

Fourthly, how come your original post said 139.7 then was edited to say 140.7hp for your car? Did you really forget you cars HP #?[/b]

I did. I went to my sheets and corrected it. It was corrected as you were posting. I ahve gone to the dyno 4 times in the past 9 months trying to find every extra hp.

Fifthly, When we do our dyno day and the Miata pulls a 145 and the Z3 pulls a 138 and teh NX 150 and a teg 165, will we be adjusting the weights officially of all cars accordingly and immediately. IF no then count me out of the "Dyno Day" my time's too valuable for science projects. If yes then let's do it before the season ends so we can get to brass tacks and I can remove my ballast. [/b]

Of course not. To me, the value to you will be a real comparison. I told Kessler my numbers once and he was impressed - UNTIL he found out it was a Dynojet. Said he bet it was high 120's on a DynaPak. That seems in line with the conversion factors. If you are pulling 135 on a Pak, I guarantee you are well above 145 on a Jet.

Dude, you know I respect you and consider you a friend but, you just gotta call a spade a spade. Why does a competitor NEED to spell out every detail of their development process to be taken seriously. You know Matt....enough said. The car's #'s are what they are and no Motec- shmotec is going to give it Greg's dyno sheet. Andy, you're too smart for that....and so am I.[/b]

In order to compare apples to apples, you have to know the prep level. Why should you get to 'claim' you are overweight using HP numbers that aren't optimized. Pre-programmable computer, I was making 133whp and 121ft/lbs. Should we run the math on that?

Nobody is claiming that you can - or should get to Greg's numbers. Each car will have it's strengths and weaknesses, and some will be better than others in the grand scheme. We have always stated that the cream will rise to the top because the 'process' can never be perfect.

I tend to look at cars and their strengths/weaknesses to determine if it's a viable candidate even if it has gone through the process. Ben's Fiero is a good example. Most people dismiss it. I look to Greg's effort as an obviously successful one. You can mitigate handling woes in IT prep if you have the power. I think the Fiero has the potential to be another 'NX2000' - meaning if you can get it out front and it will be hard to pass. I think you have a car with the potential to do 'everything well but nothing great'. Not a bad deal to have in an area where you have different tracks. And remember, your benchmark is the ARRC winner - every week - that is tough! I guarantee you that once you get the suspension dialed in, there are Regions in this country where you would be winning every weekend.
Greg's car aside, I think you would be very surprised to see how your car stacked up against my car on the same dyno.