WHY IS MY 13B A SLOW TURNER?

[bldn10]

Steve suggested I do a more robust test of the starter than clamping jumper cables so this morning I bought a new battery cable and ran it direct from the + post to the + lug on the starter, grounded direct to the battery w/ a jumper cable, and put 12v to the solenoid. It still turned as slow as ever. Steve heard it over the phone and says it is too slow to fire up. So, does anyone have any ideas what kind of mechanical problem could cause it to turn so slowly? I have raced it 1 weekend since its rebuild. It was slow to crank then but better than now.

I put 12v direct to the new fuel pump and it went off scale so it is working just fine. Otherwise it will will run until 40-45# is attained and then quit. Looks like it only gets about 5.5v from the relay. I can hear the relay cutting on and off. Is this right? Still 0 pressure reading at the FPR in the return.

[Eagle7]

Seems like I've heard that the S5 has two voltages that it applies to the fuel pump. Maybe to keep it from flooding during starting? I can't remember the specifics.

[eprodrx7]

Bill,
Was thinking about this more and wondered if you had checked the E-shaft end play? If the front pully has been changed or removed the spacer talked about earlier can move forward and the radial bering behind it will drop down. When the pully is reinstalled the whole thing will bind and make for a lot of friction at start up. As the motor warms up and expands it won't be as bad. I did this in my early Rotard days and drove the car like that for most of a season. End play should be .003-.005
JW

[bldn10]

Guys, I thought this had been checked but apparently not. First I took the car to a buddy's shop and put my starter in his car and his in mine. Mine worked in his but not his in mine. On the way home I stopped at AutoZone and had them check the new battery just for the heck of it. The damn thing would not hold voltage under load! They gave me a new one (that I had checked before I left) and now it turns over fast enough to start. I had bypassed the battery + post but may have left the ground on, and perhaps that sole connection to a bad battery drew off too much amperage when it was cranking. I don't know. Anyway, there is no apparent problem w/ the E-shaft, starter, etc.

Now that that problem is behind me I'm trying to get the thing to start. I still am not getting a hint of it firing even w/ ether sprayed in the intake. I pulled the plugs and they are all firing and I have fuel pressure. Tried a different CAS. No now what? What is the definitive way of confirming that the injectors are working in an engine that is not running?

[lateapex911]

Bill, glad to hear you are getting there! One thing that might be an issue is that after so many tries you've washed the oil off the rotor end plates and housings, and have lost compression.'

If thats the case, starting is tough. I'm a 1st gen guy, and have been down this road. One thing that helps is ATF fluid. A little in the intake can restore the lost compression and get it running. Now, if the other 2nd gen guys concur that it's an OK idea, be sure to do it when you can air the car out, and the neighbors aren't home, as the smoke show will be the size of some of the F1 Mika Hakkinen engine grenades we've seen, except it will last longer! No mosquitos will live though, so it's has it's upside!

just a thought.....

[C. Ludwig]

A quick check to see if the injectors are firing is to plug a spare CAS into the loom and spin it over by hand. Without the engine cranking it will be quiet enough to hear the injectors clicking. Noid lights eliminate all question.

[bldn10]

I'M UP AND RUNNING!

I finally gave up on getting it to fire w/ ether - it was just turning over like mad w/ no hint of firing. Checked plugs and injectors (the spare CAS trick really works!) and everything looked OK - just no hits. Chris, who rebuilt the engine, counseled against using ATF in a new engine so I tried it w/ 2-cycle oil, first in 1 rotor, then the 2nd. After the 2nd it fired right up. Was rough and smoky at first but cleared up on both counts. Now I have a nice, stable idle and timing. Hope to dyno it for the ARRC tomorrow. Thanks for all you help and encouragement.

[dj10]

Tried a different CAS. No now what? [/b]

What was the difference between when you originally tried the spare CAS and now?



Well, I'm happier than a pig in slop for you! As long as you go it fixed, that's the main thing.

[C. Ludwig]

I'M UP AND RUNNING!

I finally gave up on getting it to fire w/ ether - it was just turning over like mad w/ no hint of firing. Checked plugs and injectors (the spare CAS trick really works!) and everything looked OK - just no hits. Chris, who rebuilt the engine, counseled against using ATF in a new engine so I tried it w/ 2-cycle oil, first in 1 rotor, then the 2nd. After the 2nd it fired right up. Was rough and smoky at first but cleared up on both counts. Now I have a nice, stable idle and timing. Hope to dyno it for the ARRC tomorrow. Thanks for all you help and encouragement.
[/b]

I'd say Jake hit the nail on the head with the idea of fuel washing down the chambers which killed compression. When you were cranking it with the faulty battery there was enough juice to fill the injectors and pop them open but not enough cranking revs to seal the chamber and get it to fire. Very much of that at all you loose compression. Glad you got it sorted and glad it all turned out to be simple problems. I forgot to tell you to change the oil after your flooding issue. There's possibly a good amount of fuel in there.

[m glassburner]

Yea !!! see you at the ARRC !!! mdg #19 omni

[bldn10]

"What was the difference between when you originally tried the spare CAS and now?"

Sorry 'bout the typo - should have been: "So now what?" The spare CAS made no difference so I was simply saying that that wasn't the problem. The later reference to the spare CAS was re Chris' suggestion to plug a spare one in and, w/ the ignition on, spin the gear - the ECU thinks the engine is running and tells the injectors to fire. It is a sure way to check if the primary injectors are at least firing w/o having to take the intake off.

[bldn10]

I wish it had never started. Went to the ARRC and still had trouble getting it to go. Missed the 1st 3 practice sessions Thurs. but finally got it started for the last one. Got it going Fri. a.m. for the 1st qual. session and it felt really good but my time sucked so I figured it really wasn't putting out the power it should. At some point we pulled and cleaned the NGK racing plugs and found that the ceramic insulator was missing on one of them. I hoped/assumed it had come off and caused the previous seal failure since the same plugs were in it then. Went out for the 2nd Q session and it sounded lame. Came in and pulled a plug from the front rotor and it clearly had lost an apex seal. I was able to see inside w/ a mirror and there is a big chunk out of it. I will caution you about these plugs. Not sure what I'm going to do now - 3 engines in one season is a little much.
[attachmentid=676]

[ddewhurst]

Bill, what is the number of the NGK plug that was/is in the engine? Are you thinking the ceramic insulator fractured/busted/came apart from the ceramic body & fell into the engine?

Have you talked to the NGK racing guy that is stationed in Wixom, MI?

Thanks
David

[bldn10]

Yes, that's what I am thinking. I haven't spoken w/ anyone and don't expect any admissions or accomodations. They are the 105s - the $30 ones.

[eprodrx7]

Bill I used the same plugs in a much higher HP motor the was regulary taken to 9000+ RPM. Did you happen to see the blue and red RX7 at the ARRC? That's my old car and I built that motor 7 years ago and it is still going strong, all the time using the 10.5 plugs. I don't think the plugs are your problem.

I would guess that when the motor was rebuilt the apex seal springs were not replaced and worked just fine at idle but at higher RPM they were too weak to hold the seal against the housing. Result is that the seal bangs around in there and eventually hammers itself to death. That old seal wasted your $30 plugs and most likely the housing too.

You might want to think about a different engine builder. Sorry you had a crappy race.

[ddewhurst]

***don't expect any admissions or accomodations.***

Bill, not what I was meaning. I ment as a source of info.

[C. Ludwig]

Bill I used the same plugs in a much higher HP motor the was regulary taken to 9000+ RPM. Did you happen to see the blue and red RX7 at the ARRC? That's my old car and I built that motor 7 years ago and it is still going strong, all the time using the 10.5 plugs. I don't think the plugs are your problem.

I would guess that when the motor was rebuilt the apex seal springs were not replaced and worked just fine at idle but at higher RPM they were too weak to hold the seal against the housing. Result is that the seal bangs around in there and eventually hammers itself to death. That old seal wasted your $30 plugs and most likely the housing too.

You might want to think about a different engine builder. Sorry you had a crappy race.
[/b]

Since I was outed as the engine builder earlier in the thread I feel the need to rebuff your "guess". Quite simply it's wrong. Bill lost three engines this year. At least two to broken apex seals. This one was mine the other one wasn't. He has an issue other than bad spark plugs or old apex seal springs. IT engines don't break seals with regularity (shouldn't break them at all) without assistance from a major problem in the electronics. Be it ignition or injection. I'm leaning toward the former.

[seckerich]

I have to agree with Chris, IT motors do not eat seals. With all the fuel pump and starting problems this car has had I would not be so quick to point at the builder. I had a 4 year old Speedsource motor loose a seal. Looked at the telemetry and found fuel pressure was dropping to 28 at high RPM. The electrode on L1 fell off and went through the motor. Great to give opinions but don't be so quick to point fingers. People make a living by their reputation.

[bldn10]

John, the fact of the matter is that one of those plugs was pulled and the ceramic insulator was missing. Now it either came off inside the engine or outside. A newly rebuilt engine has a big chunk out of an apex seal. It is logical to assume that the insulator came off inside the engine and broke the seal. There is no reason that I know of to think that the spring had anything to do w/ it. FWIW these were carbon seals and special springs are used w/ them - so they were not OEM springs re-used.

I will have no hesitancy whatsoever about having Chris redo the engine if I decide to go that route.

[eprodrx7]

My apologies Chris I did not know that you had built the motor (missed that from before). Too many times I've had customers come to me saying that their freshly rebuilt motor has a problem and then I find out that they had done the motor themselves or their buddy has, and they reused everything but the water seals. The corner seals are in upside down, the springs have nothing left and and the housings "looked pretty good". I'm sure you have heard the same also. You have to say that it is more common then a bad harness. Sorry again and I too am dependant on my reputation.

If we cane assume that the motor was good going in then I would have to say that fuel pessure loss leading to a lean condition is the culprit. The series 5 cars have a funky voltage drop to the fuel pump issue. Bill try wiring the fuel pump direct to 12V and buy a cheap data system to track A/F ratio or exhaust temp.