WHY IS MY 13B A SLOW TURNER?

[bldn10]

Here's the latest:

New rebuilt starter
New battery
Neg. battery jumped direct to starter case
Pos. battery jumped direct to starter motor terminal
+ 300 amp booster

Turns a little better but still too slow
Starter pinion gear still stays stuck in flywheel
No hint of firing

I pulled plugs from both rotors and it did turn faster but isn't that always going to be the case w/ no compression resistance?

[dickita15]

Thanks for the update Bill I was just thinking of you. I was reading a tech tip column in Grassroots Motorsports about how handy the test light is. They suggested clipping the test light lead to a good ground and touching the probe to the motor while an assistant cranks the motor. If the light glows at all the engine needs a better ground. I know that the jumper should solve this but it is a simple test to do.

My next question to any of the rotary gurus here is it possible that there is an seal in the engine that could cause extra drag during the starting process and if so would it cause a problem when running.

[ddewhurst]

***Starter pinion gear still stays stuck in flywheel***

Bill, that's ^ as queer as a nine dollar bill. Since this non returning pinion have you tested for the starter amperage draw? Might the pinion on the rebuilt starter not be square to the starter mounting surface? Did the old starter pinion disengage as it should? Can you some how remove the starter & hang it down where it belongs (have a building block on the floor & clamp the starter to the building block), attach the normal wires with a ground wire from starter to the engine & hit the starter to see if the starter spins fast & furious? Be darn sure none of the hot wires can touch anything.

It's kind of Rube Goldberg but if completed correctly what can it hurt.

Stuff shouldn't be this difficult
David

[Eagle7]

Bill, it sounds like you've got a mechanical interference problem. If I understand correctly, with a prior transmission installed the gear wouldn't engage, and now it won't disengage. Both sound like too little clearance between the flywheel teeth and the starter teeth. Seems like it's got to be: rear engine housing, flywheel, bell housing dowels, transmission, or starter.

[bldn10]

I did the Grassroots test and also jumped a + to the solenoid terminal. It still does not turn as fast as it should but I think it should be fast enough to start. The pinion will release by manually turning the flywheel so I think it will be OK once the damn thing starts up.

I think I now have a fuel delivery issue. I just installed a FPR and am not getting any pressure at all. There is gas at the secondary rail supply so I think either the rail/OEM FPR or fuel pump or fuel filter is/are bad.

[seckerich]

I did the Grassroots test and also jumped a + to the solenoid terminal. It still does not turn as fast as it should but I think it should be fast enough to start. The pinion will release by manually turning the flywheel so I think it will be OK once the damn thing starts up.

I think I now have a fuel delivery issue. I just installed a FPR and am not getting any pressure at all. There is gas at the secondary rail supply so I think either the rail/OEM FPR or fuel pump or fuel filter is/are bad.
[/b]

Sounds like the fuel lines are reversed. The fuel should go in from the filter to the metal line towards the front of the motor and return from the rear line. Feeds the primary rail and then the secondary which has the regulator. The pump does not run unless the airflow meter moves to turn on the relay. If you are not drawing good air it will not run. Check it by pushing in on the AFM by hand to see if the pump runs.

[eprodrx7]

The pinion disengages from the flywheel when the flywheel speed exceeds the starter speed (when the motor starts) I believe the real issue is a lack of amperage to the starter due to old crappy wire. Go to autozone and buy a pos. battery terminal with a 3ft+ lead and run it direct to the starter. Should solve the problem. On a long shot did you get a turbo model starter accidentally? Or maybe you have a turbo flywheel and need the turbo starter?

[Eagle7]

...The pump does not run unless the airflow meter moves to turn on the relay. If you are not drawing good air it will not run. Check it by pushing in on the AFM by hand to see if the pump runs.
[/b]

I'm not sure, but I think Bill's got an S5 setup, which does not control the fuel pump through the AFM. It's controlled by the ECU.

[bldn10]

John, I have run cables directly from the battery so I don't think it has anything to do w/ wiring.

Steve, I hate to admit it but when I first hooked it up I indeed had it reversed. Didn't catch that the 2 lines cross over each other. I have it right now - I think - the return goes into the side of the FPR and exits out the bottom. The gauge is in one of the extra side ports. Is the OEM FPR closed until a certain pressure is reached? Was is it? As a test I ran a hose from the filter to the FPR and I get 39# even w/ the FPR closed off as far as it will go. So I figure I am getting 39# or so into the secondary rail ... but 0 coming out. So is 39 below the bleed-off point? Of course, at 39 I am getting fuel and it should fire up.

And Marty I think you are right because I've always had fuel pressure w/o the engine running. Also, I pulled the supply line off and turned on the pump and got gas.

[seckerich]

Forgot you were S5 so the pump should be on. I have always run the line from the filter to the inlet and have a T fitting there to read pressure. I run the outlet line to the external FPR and set from there. The stock regulator is usually 35-39 stock on these cars and we do not run the vacuum line to the FPR on the secondary rail. You will see no change in pressure until you go higher than the stock regulator. You are probably to the point with this motor that it is so washed down with fuel it will not have compression to start. Pull the stick and see if you smell fuel. Check if the plugs get wet when you crank it and it does not start. If all else fails try to pull it off in second gear and it might save you tons of time. If that doesn't solve the problem load it up and bring it over and we will get you going.

[bldn10]

Steve, your setup w/ the gauge in a T in the supply line should be the same as my test w/ the supply to the FPR w/ gauge. What pressure do you get? Should it not be more than 39? To clarify, are you confirming that if my gauge in the return line reads 0 then the supply pressure is < the stock FPR of 35-39? I.e the stock FPR shuts off all return up to that point? Again, doesn&#39;t that indicate a bad filter or failing pump?

[seckerich]

Steve, your setup w/ the gauge in a T in the supply line should be the same as my test w/ the supply to the FPR w/ gauge. What pressure do you get? Should it not be more than 39? To clarify, are you confirming that if my gauge in the return line reads 0 then the supply pressure is < the stock FPR of 35-39? I.e the stock FPR shuts off all return up to that point? Again, doesn&#39;t that indicate a bad filter or failing pump?
[/b]

If I understand you correctly you have the FPR before it enters the fuel rail? If so you are just setting the pressure to the fuel pump. The regulator has to be the last thing in the line before the return. You will see pressure at the FPR and have nothing at the rails. The guage hole in the FPR is reading the pressure between the inlet line and the FPR--not the outlet pressure which is just a return to the tank. The FPR acts like a dam and holds fuel back until it reaches the set pressure and lets the rest go by. You should not ever read pressure on the return side after the FPR or you have a blocked line. Give me a call and I will send you a picture of my setup.

[its66]

Bill,
This may be a silly question--did you remove/disable the stock FPR?

[bldn10]

Steve, my putting the FPR in the supply line was just a test of the pump/filter; the permanent installation is in the return line. But I was getting 0 there - so I was trying to figure out why I get no pressure in the return line but have pressure to the rails. Premise - I was not getting enough pressure to overcome the stock FPR. So I put the FPR w/ gauge in the supply just to test that - and got 39#. The pump should put out more than that so to test the filter I bypassed it w/ a line from the pump to the FPR/gauge. Still got 39# so: 1. the filter is not restricting flow; and 2. the pump is deficient. I ordered a new Walbro pump that will be here today. Of course, even w/ 39# the engine should fire up.

Jim, I know we went through this once before and my understanding is that if you want more pressure you do not have to mess w/ the stock FPR. Like Steve explained, the new FPR downstream of the stock FPR will dam up the fuel that the latter lets by; thus, increasing pressure upstream. But if you want less than stock pressure, yes, you have to disable the stock FPR. [We don&#39;t have to get into this here but I have gone on record saying that I have a somewhat difficult time finding where it says in the ITCS that you can modify the fuel rail. The rule allowing after-market FPRs should be clarified to expressly state that stock FPRs may be removed or modified if and as is necessary.]

[its66]

Bill,
oops..I guess I forgot my basic physics. You are correct, that should work fine. I hope the fuel pump fixes it. I&#39;ve been chasing a fuel problem with a friend down here and know they can be pretty frustrating.

Jim

[seckerich]

Steve, my putting the FPR in the supply line was just a test of the pump/filter; the permanent installation is in the return line. But I was getting 0 there - so I was trying to figure out why I get no pressure in the return line but have pressure to the rails. Premise - I was not getting enough pressure to overcome the stock FPR. So I put the FPR w/ gauge in the supply just to test that - and got 39#. The pump should put out more than that so to test the filter I bypassed it w/ a line from the pump to the FPR/gauge. Still got 39# so: 1. the filter is not restricting flow; and 2. the pump is deficient. I ordered a new Walbro pump that will be here today. Of course, even w/ 39# the engine should fire up.

Jim, I know we went through this once before and my understanding is that if you want more pressure you do not have to mess w/ the stock FPR. Like Steve explained, the new FPR downstream of the stock FPR will dam up the fuel that the latter lets by; thus, increasing pressure upstream. But if you want less than stock pressure, yes, you have to disable the stock FPR. [We don&#39;t have to get into this here but I have gone on record saying that I have a somewhat difficult time finding where it says in the ITCS that you can modify the fuel rail. The rule allowing after-market FPRs should be clarified to expressly state that stock FPRs may be removed or modified if and as is necessary.]
[/b]

Let us know how it goes after you get the new pump. And thanks for helping feed my family with the Walbro pump purchase. My company makes the motor housings inside those pumps.

[bldn10]

Well, I got the new pump and now I need to ask if the test I am doing of it is accurate. I have a line essentially from the pump to my FPR w/ gauge. I have the FPR cranked all the way closed, which I assume means no gas returns. I.e. a dead end or, as Steve says, a dam. It should be the same as just putting a pressure gauge at the end of the line - right? Spec fuel pump pressure is 64-85; I was getting 39 before and now 42 w/ the new pump. That still ain&#39;t good enough. Must have a bad motor housing. :P

[seckerich]

Well, I got the new pump and now I need to ask if the test I am doing of it is accurate. I have a line essentially from the pump to my FPR w/ gauge. I have the FPR cranked all the way closed, which I assume means no gas returns. I.e. a dead end or, as Steve says, a dam. It should be the same as just putting a pressure gauge at the end of the line - right? Spec fuel pump pressure is 64-85; I was getting 39 before and now 42 w/ the new pump. That still ain&#39;t good enough. Must have a bad motor housing. :P
[/b]

Problem solved!! Is there a chance that the line in the tank has a leak and is bleading off? Chance your pressure gauge is off? Just reaching here. With the aeromotive FPR My pump will go 50+ easy. You should only need 37 or so to make the S5 happy. The problem is to get fuel out of the top end.

[Tak]

DId you ever solve the cranking problem? If the motor turns easily by hand, slowly under the starter, and the stater gear stays engaged with the flywheel, I would guess one of the following:

1) Flywheel or ring gear is coming loose
2) Starter is too close the the flywheel and the gear teeth are crashing (tips of one gear crashing into valley of mating gear). Check for this by inking the entire starter gear. Install it, crank it for a few seconds, remove it, and look at where ink is worn off. The gear tips and the bottom of the valleys should both keep their ink.
3) The entire eccentric shaft is floating too much (there is a shim at the front thrust bearing that limits shaft float IIRC). It&#39;s possible that the starter engaging the flywheel is pushing it forward, causing something to rub and drag. I rate this one as unlikely, but should be easy to check with a dial indicator on the front pulley. (I&#39;ve got a 12A, so I don&#39;t know the 13B spec. It should be in the manual.)

Good Luck...

Tak
#29 ITA
SFR SCCA

[bldn10]

TAK, I think we have concluded that once the engine starts and the flywheel turns faster than the starter, it will release. But, no, it still turns slower than it should and it will not fire up. So I started looking at fuel, spark, etc.