ECUs....is it time?

[dj10]

Anything would be an improvement over the current situation. Thanks for the update.

James
[/b]

James, a favor please. You seem to know BMW's, what EMS units are out there compatible with E36 & E46's beside Motec? I'm not to familar with the others, but I would like to be.

Thanks

dj

[Z3_GoCar]

James, a favor please. You seem to know BMW's, what EMS units are out there compatible with E36 & E46's beside Motec? I'm not to familar with the others, but I would like to be.

Thanks

dj
[/b]

Hey Dan,

I'd think that opening the box would allow lots of options that could plug into the stock harness connector, even if it'd have to reconfigure pins and ect. The real limit would be in matching the sensors to the system, that's where the older and less expensive systems are really limited, operation on the stock sensor signals. That's why I'm in favor of wording that follows the allowable carburetor replacement rules, spec system options and sensors that meet the minimum requirement of operation and tunning of the motor, without bypassing the throttle plate or manifold, even keep the stock AFM even if it's not used. Keep the air flow the same, just allow us to tune the fuel and ignition curve all we want.

So, I'll look into the different options and get back to you, I may be able to turn up more systems.

BTW, Congrats on the win

James

[shwah]

It has been mentioned several times in this thread now that the cheapest system available can be configured to operate with your OEM signals. So, if the sensors are not opened up, all is not lost for you guys.

[Eagle7]

It has been mentioned several times in this thread now that the cheapest system available can be configured to operate with your OEM signals. So, if the sensors are not opened up, all is not lost for you guys.
[/b]

I assume you're talking about Megasquirt. If so, here's some clarification as I understand it:

• If you have a MAP sensor you should be able to adapt MS to use it.
• If you have a true mass air flow sensor, you will be in a small minority of MS users, and things may not work as well as with a MAP sensor. I do not know if all MAF sensors are supported nor whether it is possible to adapt to non-supported sensors.
• If you have neither MAP nor MAF you're out of luck, unless you are allowed to attach a vacuum line to your Megasquirt box.
• I don't know if there are crank/cam sensor configurations that are not supported.
• I don't know if there are ignition system configurations that are not supported.

[shwah]

The beauty of the open architecture of MS is that you can literally do anything you want with it. Heck it was not designed to run ignition in the MS-1 architecture, but it did not take long for folks to develop methods to do so, running off of crank trigger wheels and/or factory hall sensor for sure - don't know what other methods are there; triggering spark directly or via factory ignition modules.

Every air measurement sensor has the same basic function - a signal that varies with airflow. One just needs to teach the MS what those values mean.

No it is not as simple as an off the shelf setup, and will take more time for sure. But you will know your car, your motor and your fuel injection better than ever, and be able to meaningfully tune it yourself as a result.

Having said all that, for my application I don't see a real big potential gain, so will probably stick with stock solutions.

[C. Ludwig]

The downsides of the Megasquirt are plenty and IMO they should not be considered as the benchmark for any rule that will be written on the ECU. They are not a mainstream product in the sense that you can lean on a regional tuning shop for help when it all goes wrong. You, the user, need to have a very good understanding of how the individual electronic components work to assemble one on your own and take real advantage of it's price point. It is open arcitechture and it can be adapted to anything but that is just about as open ended of a statement as saying the stock ECU can be adapted to do anything. Yes it can be. But the reason we are having this debate is that the masses either don't have the knowledge and desire to do the work themselves and it's prohibitvely expensive to hire it done, IF you can find someone to undertake such a custom project. We can not take it for granted that every car owner has an advanced knowledge of electronics and has the desire or patience to build their own system. Yes there are commercial suppliers of pre-built MS units. But are they readily available for each application or will they have to be re-worked? You run into the same challenges when you begin tuning. Some will want to tune their own stuff. But what about the guy that wants to lean on a professional tuner? That tuner will be expected to have advanced knowledge of the interface and how the control system works. MS is simply not prevelant enough in this field for it to have built up a large following among professional tuners. Again, by benchmarking MS we assume that the mass of car owners will want and be able to assume the task of tuning. The MS simply can't be regarded as a benchmark.

The whole gripe about the current ECU rule is that while there are some great, inexpensive, drop-in solutions that meet the letter and spirit of the rule for some cars, most are left either pioneering their way into expensive, uncharted territory to keep up with the Jones' or left without and a bitter pill to swallow. While a great solution for some cars, again, Megasquirt travels a somewhat parallel path. Though the ultimate expense in hardware may be low by comparison, if the knowledge base doesn't support your goal you are again blazing a path you shouldn't have to.

[BudMan]

I guess I'm on the other side of the fence.

Race a honda - $400 for an ecu that uses the stock harness & spend $300 to tune it with a new chip.

Fits in the case & is extremely reliable.


I've always been a bmw fan, but it seems that most of the gut-wrenching discussion and arguments against rules comes from the bmw drivers (high percentage). I didn't realize it was that hard to make them run fast. These are just my observations - Please don't think I'm trying to be an ass. Perhaps it is only the BMW guys that are smart enough to come here & have good discussions??

I'm looking forward to getting my butt handed to me next year in ITR - Hopefully, we'll have a really good turnout in the new class

[tnord]

sorry jeff, my guess is you're going to be the only one out there.

[dj10]

I guess I'm on the other side of the fence.

Race a honda - $400 for an ecu that uses the stock harness & spend $300 to tune it with a new chip.

Fits in the case & is extremely reliable.


I've always been a bmw fan, but it seems that most of the gut-wrenching discussion and arguments against rules comes from the bmw drivers (high percentage). I didn't realize it was that hard to make them run fast. These are just my observations - Please don't think I'm trying to be an ass. Perhaps it is only the BMW guys that are smart enough to come here & have good discussions??

I'm looking forward to getting my butt handed to me next year in ITR - Hopefully, we'll have a really good turnout in the new class [/b]

Yo BudMan, BTW I drive a BMW and I drink Wild Turkey.

As for your post I'm also going to ITR for 07 and I'd like to comment on your observation. What you described sounds to me like you'd like something like a Honda Challange. Not all cars are so lucky to have a plug and play EMS like you described. The fun of IT racing is that you are racing against different manufactures. If I wanted to race against all the same cars, I'd be doing BMW club racing, to which I have no interest to do. I'm happy for you if you want to go the Honda route and you have a cheap way to get the EMS to work for you. I for one believe in the new ITR and the multi manfactures concept and I hope to see you on the track.

Best of luck with your ITR project.

dj

[lateapex911]

He may, or may not be, the only one out there in ITR. It really will mirror the IT subscription levels in that part of the country I bet.

But it will grow. Here in the NE, I know lots of guys thinking and scheming...we'll see counts near ITC counts to start with. Integra Rs, E36s, Porsche Boxsters and 944S2s and Z cars will all see track time I bet.

On the BMW thing, I don't think we can attach any of the need for open ECU rules to the needs of BMW drivers.... thats just preposterous. Maybe certain BMWs are common platforms and are plentiful, and demonstrate certain characterisics that apply to this rule, but this is NOT about BMWs.

How do I know? Well, I started the thread, I started the internal ITAC thread/discussion, and I am basically the guy who got the ball rolling on this. Now, others have contributed massively, but as the ball roller, so to speak, I can tell you that until I read that post, the term BMW never crossed my mind.

This is about making it easy for as many as possible to acheive the process power that has been assigned to their car. Some of you are lucky, others, Honda owners as well, are most definately not lucky.

[tnord]

a lot of times in racing, we try to bring the guys at the front back to the middle ground by way of spec tires, SS based rules, sealed engines, etc. THIS DOESN'T WORK. All it does is make it more expensive to get to the front.

what this rule is about is bringing the bottom up. opening up the ECU rule has the intent of making it cheaper to achieve the same gains as the guys who are currently stuffing "motec in a box." nobody is promising you will improve your position, all that's intended is to make it easier for you to have the best equipment available.

[Bill Miller]

On the BMW thing, I don't think we can attach any of the need for open ECU rules to the needs of BMW drivers.... thats just preposterous.[/b]

Not trying to be an ass here, but isn't that exactly what they did w/ the dual-classification?

[lateapex911]

DC applies to all cars that were currently in ITS that have also been listed in ITR. Not marque specific at all, categorical.

[C. Ludwig]

a lot of times in racing, we try to bring the guys at the front back to the middle ground by way of spec tires, SS based rules, sealed engines, etc. THIS DOESN'T WORK. All it does is make it more expensive to get to the front.

what this rule is about is bringing the bottom up. opening up the ECU rule has the intent of making it cheaper to achieve the same gains as the guys who are currently stuffing "motec in a box." nobody is promising you will improve your position, all that's intended is to make it easier for you to have the best equipment available.
[/b]

That is so clear, to the point, and concise...eloquent dare I say?...it brings a tear to my eye!

[dj10]

But it will grow. Here in the NE, I know lots of guys thinking and scheming...we'll see counts near ITC counts to start with. Integra Rs, E36s, Porsche Boxsters and 944S2s and Z cars will all see track time I bet.

On the BMW thing, I don't think we can attach any of the need for open ECU rules to the needs of BMW drivers.... thats just preposterous. Maybe certain BMWs are common platforms and are plentiful, and demonstrate certain characterisics that apply to this rule, but this is NOT about BMWs.

How do I know? Well, I started the thread, I started the internal ITAC thread/discussion, and I am basically the guy who got the ball rolling on this. Now, others have contributed massively, but as the ball roller, so to speak, I can tell you that until I read that post, the term BMW never crossed my mind.
[/b]

Jake,

To me this attitude is refreshing as well as productive. Even though I do race a BMW, it is only logical that an open ECU would benefit every car possible with few exceptions. If a Honda, as an example has a less complicated EMS install, good for them. But I assure you it will be worth it in the long run, no matter what car you run.

I hope we can keep the pressure on the CRB to draft asap, the new rule. I know you have had some very talented people involved. We need this sooner than later because this isn't tuning for a flat plate restrictor.

dj

[tnord]

That is so clear, to the point, and concise...eloquent dare I say?...it brings a tear to my eye!
[/b]

thanks chris...like Jules in Tarrantino's classic, i felt i had a moment of clarity right before i posted, and that all my experience in racing (a whopping 3yrs) finally came together. or maybe it was just gas.

i've been meaning to respond to your PM, but i've actually been working while at work.

i would really like to hear more arguments on both sides for where the line is drawn for the open ECU rule in terms of sensors and wiring harness.

[Bill Miller]

DC applies to all cars that were currently in ITS that have also been listed in ITR. Not marque specific at all, categorical.
[/b]

Ok, that's the party line, but we know why it was done. And speaking of which, has there been any decision as to what the exact parameters of DC are going to be? Will there be a sunset date? Does it only apply to cars that have a current logbook?

[Knestis]

... At this point, we will submit the rule change as we wrote it ( at this point it's at a fairly progressive state, in order to look at the extremes) to the CRB and it should go out on next months Fastrack for member feedback, with a preface to summarize the situation and intent, and we'll see what happens. ...[/b]

Sorry, Jake - I've been swamped with work and getting ready for the VIR 13 so I might have missed something, but what are the specifics of the "rule change as [you] wrote it?" I continue to be of a mixed mind on this issue and am working hard to resolve things myself, one way or the other.

And, Miller - I could have gone for ages without being reminded about the DC thing. My prognostication is, now that that particular horse is out of the barn, the door ain't going to get closed. DC's will be applied inconsistently in the future and within a few years, they will become an issue.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

......

On the BMW thing, I don't think we can attach any of the need for open ECU rules to the needs of BMW drivers.... thats just preposterous. Maybe certain BMWs are common platforms and are plentiful, and demonstrate certain characterisics that apply to this rule, but this is NOT about BMWs.

How do I know? Well, I started the thread, I started the internal ITAC thread/discussion, and I am basically the guy who got the ball rolling on this. Now, others have contributed massively, but as the ball roller, so to speak, I can tell you that until I read that post, the term BMW never crossed my mind.

This is about making it easy for as many as possible to acheive the process power that has been assigned to their car. Some of you are lucky, others, Honda owners as well, are most definately not lucky.
[/b]

While I'm a BMW racer, I'm only able to speak to what I know. This weekend while talking to the driver of 200sx Radial Sedan that's going to switch over to ITA, I learned that Nissan racers with OBDII are in the same boat, even the Nissan tuner guru's are scratching their collective heads on it. There are work-arounds that are tuned as a package with cams, but it's not flexable enough to be installed minus the cams package and be reprogrammed. The BMW need is there, but also Nissan's have the need too, how about Porsche's, VW's, Toyota's? So I can say that just because a couple of BMW racers are active on this thread, it's not just a BMW problem. I've been saying all along that the intent of ODBII was to make engine management tamper-proof. Even before OBD, there was the old non-adjustable smog carburetors, you know the ones with the factory sealed adjustment screws What does OBDII do when you remove the cat? What about the post cat oxy sensor? These things are engineered, designed, and built as a system. They are fully integrated into how the car runs. Unless you were on the design team, and studied what would happen if??, there's no way to tell what the consequences of just willy-nilly unplugging things like post-cat oxygen sensors. Sometimes it's just benign, and sometimes it's really bad, it all depends on the system dynamics.

James

[stevel]

I guess I'm on the other side of the fence.

Race a honda - $400 for an ecu that uses the stock harness & spend $300 to tune it with a new chip.


[/b]

Relative to the other makes here that's not a bad price. But if you're paying $400 for a chipped ecu for a honda someone is really ripping you off. Using a stock chipped ECU is the way to go (for most apps i've had). No need to stuff anything in the case. Just plug the stock one back in. Can't get more reliable than a stock honda ECU! And $300 to tune it isn't a great price either. For hondas I do the whole thing for about half that total cost!

s