Mustang Suspension

[guffsx125]

I am building a 1990 mustang coupe for ITB. I was wanting to know what everyone is using for shocks, springs, and swaybars.

thanks Anthony

[Ron]

We use circle track style front springs with Adjustable upper spring perches welded directly to the K member. I want to say the fronts are 5 1/2 inch. On the rear we use 5 inch Circle track stuff with the adjustment welded to the lower control arm. The great thing with the springs are they only cost about $45.00 a corner. With the adjustment we can corner weight the car and change the ride height at will. For shocks we use the Koni double adjustable on all 4 corners. You need to machine the front spindles so the shocks will fit. The mounting area is an 1/8 of an inch to wide and the Konis only fit the 87-93 V-8 cars. We have built a custom front sway bar set up once again using more cheap circle track stuff. Hollw bar with the mounting points relocated about 5 inches lower, aluminiun arms that we bent with some heat and a double heim joint set up to connect to the front control arm. We have moved away from a rea sway bar. We are working on a cocpit adjustable rear. Someday we will get it to work. Are car is fairly stiff rate wise. Global west has great solid delrin bushings for the front. We have the car pretty dialed in and easy to drive. Hell I suck at typing so if you want to know more please feel free to call me.

Ron Sattele

cell 770-757-1447
Home 770-218-9967

[trueblue]

If you want your mustang to handle with the best, follow Ron's advice.

[Knestis]

Where's a Rules NERD when you need one?

K

[Greg Amy]

If you want to be illegal, follow Ron's advice.

[Doc Bro]

I think I know why Ron's car is fast. It's more prod. than IT.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm not shy. You may want to look into these items before you take anyones advice. Legality is more important to some than to others:

...with Adjustable upper spring perches welded directly to the K member.

...with the adjustment welded to the lower control arm.

...You need to machine the front spindles so the shocks will fit.

...with the mounting points relocated about 5 inches lower, aluminiun arms that we bent with some heat and a double heim joint set up to connect to the front control arm.

...We are working on a cocpit adjustable rear. [/b]

[Knestis]

Hey - I'm not shy. I'm just out of the NERD business.

K

[lateapex911]

It's tough to say exactly on a couple of the items, but, if legality is important (and in an honor system such as ours, it should be), i would steer clear of the methods prescribed in Andy's list. Specifiacally items 1 and 2 are clearly not cool, item 3 might be, tough to say without specifics, item 4 seems fine if it's sway bar related, and item 5 is a huge no no.

[Rabbit07]

My ITB Mustang has adjustable spring perches, but they are not welded to anything. If you use 2 1/2 coil springs they are much lighter than 5's or 5 1/2's. My car has 750's up front and 250's in the rear. I have the equivalent to the steeda 5 link in the rear. You can balance handling with front and rear bars and rear roll center.

It is true that many of the shocks available for the Mustang today require that you machine the knuckle. I am fortunate in that respect that my car was built about 10 years ago when struts were still available for 2.3 powered cars. Don't fret there are options that are legal, you just have to spend a bit more money.

The real issue with the Mustang in ITB is making power. You can make it handle very well, but the VW's and
Volvo's will still pull you down the straights.

[trueblue]

Adjustable spring perches are legal. Would it be better received if they were bolted in v/s welded in? I have a set of adjustable perches bolted in on my control arms.

This could be considered a gray area. You can buy struts that fit the thicker 4 cyl spindles but they are sorry. Modifying the spindle is safer than modifying the strut. Were talking about shaving an 1/8" of extra material here, not a major modification. The Fox mustang has been out of production for a while and parts just are not available. Face it no one outside of SCCA has a desire to keep the 4cyl parts therefore aftermarket vendors will not build the parts we need. There is a larger modification done to a VW when converted to coil over shocks. Running the struts available for the 4cyl limits the spring rate you can have. Try to run stock shocks with 1000 # springs and see what happens.

Sway bars are open. You can put in a custom sway bar. For that matter you can install swaybars in a car that never had them. No one tells you how you have to build it. I have a hollow aluminum swaybar, it just happens to mount to the stock location.

As to why the car is so fast I'll stand up for Ron a little and give some credit to his driving. No one likes to admit it when a driver is fast. Seat time, seat time, seat time.

I am no guru when it comes to the rules. Read them yourself and come up with your own interpretation.

[Rabbit07]

b. Springs and Shock Absorbers
1. Shock absorbers may be replaced provided they attach
to the original mounting points. The number and type
(e.g., tube, lever, etc.) of shock absorbers shall be the
same as stock. The interchange of gas and hydraulic
shock absorbers is permitted. Remote reservoir shock
absorbers are prohibited beginning 1/1/03. As of
1/1/03, external adjustments of shock control shall be
limited to two (2). No shock absorber may be capable
of adjustment while the car is in motion.
2. MacPherson strut equipped cars may substitute struts,
and /or may use alternate inserts. Spring seat ride height
location may be altered from stock. Remote reservoir
struts and/or inserts are prohibited.
3. Springs of any origin may be used, provided they are of
the same number and type as originally fitted, i.e., coil,
leaf, torsion bar, and that they shall be installed in the
original location using the original system of attachment.
The joining of two or more coil springs by any means is
prohibited. The use of tender springs (designed to capture
the spring within the perches at full droop) are permitted
provided the tender springs are completely compressed
when the car is at static ride height. Shackles or spacers
may be used to adjust leaf spring ride height. Spacers,
including threaded units with adjustable spring seats,
may be used with coil springs. Coil over threaded body
shock/struts are permitted.

I don't see where the adjustable spring perches are a problem?

c. Suspension Control
1. Any anti-roll bar(s), traction bar(s), panhard rod or
watts linkage may be added or substituted, provided
its/their installation serves no other purpose. The
mounts for these devices may be welded or bolted to
the structure of the vehicle. No suspension control
mount or component shall be located in the trunk or
driver/passenger compartment unless installed by the
manufacturer as original equipment. Traction bars used
to control axle rotation shall be one piece solid bar or
tube. Heim rod ends may be fitted.

Looks like other than a cock-pit controlled bar everything is legal there too.

[lateapex911]

The adjustable spring seats are fine, but the attachment is problematic. Welding them to various components, such as the control arms could be a strengthening issue. It's really altering the component that it's being attached to, which is expressly forbidden.

Sway bars are free, but cockpit adjustable is clearly not allowed.

And while struts are free, the spindle area is gray at best in my mind. I'm not familiar enough with the spindle/strut relationship in this case to be knowedgable.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Always remember:

If it doesn't say you can, then you can't.

[Ron]

Spring seat ride height
location may be altered from stock. Spacers,
including threaded units with adjustable spring seats,
may be used with coil springs.

That right there covers the use of my spring perches on both the car side and the control arm side. It serves no ther purpose. Welding is a non issue how would you make them stay on? Trust me I will post pictures if it will make is any more clear. What I have done is very crude to say the least.

The sway bar is a non issue. I will stop work on the adjustable one. I have read the rules so many times that I thought that the bar could not enter the car but if you feel the control is part I will conceed that point. I will just put it in the trunk so that we can still due quick tunning, but not from the seat. The only reason I have all that stuff is that it was givin to me nad I thought it would be fun to try.

If grinding off a few thousandths off a big old spindle is cheating than I will fix that by taking the plasma cutter to the strut and modify it. I'm sure none of you have has ever filed anything to make it fit.

Greg, Doc, Andy how has what I have done been cheating. I read the rules at least once a month. I share what I have done so that others can see it because we are on the honor system. I'll even post our engine dyno sheets so everyone sees that we are not making stupid power. Ask David Lera from Flordia, he and I have had great battles over the years. At Roebling Road the car is fantastic, the gearing of the car and the flowing flat nature of the track suits the car. Places like Road Atlanta we suck. to many stops and starts with hills everywhere does not suit a 2650 pound car. We keep going back trying different things however.
I have spent a lot of time making this car work, not that much money ( hell the front sway bar set up was $250.00 total) and I take offense that I am accused of being illegal. If you see our new car next year at the track come by and I will give you a tour of every aspect of the car, top to bottom. When I say I have no secrets I mean it.

Post update I will mount the rear sway bar contol under the trunk!

[trueblue]

Always remember:

If it doesn't say you can, then you can't.
[/b]

Silly me! I always get that backwards!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

I think the beef is that a guy comes on and asks for help/ideas/suggestions - and a few of the items you posted are not legal by the GCR. You can run your program how you want but suggesting items that don't jive with the rules of our class is what prompts the posts.

Be fast and be safe.

[Ron]

Andy, please let me know what you think I have done is illegal?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, please let me know what you think I have done is illegal?

[/b]

Adjustable upper spring perches welded directly to the K member.
Adjustment welded to the lower control arm.
Machining the front spindles so the shocks will fit
And the consideration for a cocpit adjustable rear bar was even a thought?

I see no provision for these changes in the GCR. YMMV.

[Ron]

I'll post the rules again and please discuss how what we did illegal, stating what and how I broke a rule. Please don't hide behind the IIDSYCDIYC or what ever. Sometimes you must interpret rules. I'm really not trying to twist them to fit my needs. I read these rules below and thats how we came up with what I did for the adjustable spring seats.

Spring seat ride height
location may be altered from stock. Spacers,
including threaded units with adjustable spring seats,
may be used with coil springs.

It says I can do it. It makes no specific mention of how to mount it. In fact I beleive the old rules said something about them or coil overs not being welded but it looks as though that verbage was dropped. The rules do state that there shall be no reinforcement of any suspension component. That was not my intent or do I beleive we have accomplished that in any of our changes. I still don't get how you can veiw what I have done as illegal.

What is a little confusing is that in one section of the rules it says we can cange the spring seat ride height location and another part of the rule states that they must be installed in the original location using the the original system of attachment. And then again in the same rule it states that spacers including threaded units with adjustable spring seats my be used with coil springs. Is this what has you questioning what I have done.

And as for the grinding of the spindles I will stand firm on that in that the small amount of material removed is insignificant and should be a nonissue. We can agree to disagree on that one.

And I stated that I have changed the rear sway bar to meet the rules, I missed that one.