Neons screwed again

[GregM]

Peter,
I hope to meet you at Topeka to discuss this car . Why would the CRB withdraw the request like this without explanation ? Some insight would be helpful so maybe we can address the issue and not have to wait another whole year for a chance. We have two more Fastrack's to get it done. FP is the right choice for a Neon racer to move into National competion, so why not give a car that has a huge following a chance at the National level ?

I believe we have already seen a similar situation with the ITS move to ITA that was stalled. Once it did happen it was too late as unfortunately for Neon racer's as Dodge had removed their support of their IT parts program due to poor sales. The Club should have supported a Manufacturer that had supported Club racing for so many years. Its amazing to see the Mazda program and support grow only to watch Dodge's die off. No Neon has proven to be truly competitive in ITA although many of us are now trying. Definitely not a class killer but a good fit after more developement.

Why build an EP car when an ITA car isn't competitive ? It is limited prep. afterall and the suspension limits the cars potential.
Does anyone in SCCA really think someone will build a GT-2 DOHC Neon or a GT-3 SOHC Neon at this point when even the lower entry level classed Neon's can't prove to be competitive ?

Do we really need a club where we have Miata's ( and I like Miata's a lot ) racing ( EP, FP,GTL, GT-3, GT-2, ITS, ITA, SSM, SM, T3 and SSB )in every class ? Just to name a few.

Isn't 11 classifications a bit much for one car model ????

Why not add the FP Neon classification and put the old standby TBD at the end like they did for the Subaru T2 restrictor that never happened ? They could alway's add 100lbs anytime they want in Fastrack to keep it level .

We need newer car model's classified and need to stop worrying about older car's. We are not the " Antique Sportcar Racing Club of America " afterall. This isn't vintage racing and I do have a vintage racecar.

Peter I hope you can help. Thanks

[PSherm]

Peter - thank you for your post, I will definitely look you up at the Runoffs. I sent an e-mail to the CRB the day I read the FasTrack. All I want at this time is an explanation as to why the proposal was pulled. There was nothing listed in FasTrack, and I've received no response from the CRB or PAC. Without anything official from either party means anything we try to put together for a new classing is spitting in the wind, and that is pissing me off. :angry:

[lateapex911]

Hey guys, screw getting the car into Fp or Ep or any P, LOL....just get IT made National, ...

Gotta admit, it would solve your problem! Who wants to do all that extra prep work to run 1 second a lap faster anyway??

Kidding........sorta.

Seriously, Peter is a good guy. He's only one of 7 or so guys on the CRB, but he's got good experience, and he's open minded.

[p.keane]

Guys I had posted again, but do not know what happened to it. What I wanted to say is I agree there is a lot of work to be done in Production. I also think the current CRB is very forward thinking and improvements are coming. Just keep sending the letters. Oh and Jake is right, let's just get IT national status and then we can all go to Topeka. PK

[PSherm]

Peter, I WANT to send in a letter but until I know the reason the CRB withdrew the proposal, I don't know what to ask for or what info to provide above what they already have. All I want right now is an explanation!

As far as IT going National, I'd say no (for now). Do I think there should be a National class between SS and Prod; yes. But until the CRB/BOD figure out a plan to make the Runoffs work for more classes I would not rush to ask for it.

I'd REALLY like for Production cages to be legal for IT so the transition would be less costly/painful...

[RSTPerformance]

I'd REALLY like for Production cages to be legal for IT so the transition would be less costly/painful...
[/b]

I havn't read this thread to detailed, but I did see the above quote... and I love the idea!!! However most would see it as unessesary... IT cages are legal for production correct?

[PSherm]

... IT cages are legal for production correct?
[/b]

I believe that is correct, for the most part. The problem (as I see it) is that in IT trim, my (NEON) cage has to be based on the IT spec weight, which means the cage would be heavier gauge than the cage for Prod. So unless I would want to replace the cage, I would pay a weight penalty by keeping the IT cage, which increases my costs significantly. If I can start out with a Prod cage (based on Prod weight), then I could run the same cage and move seemlesly (relatively) to Production.

Of course this is just my opinion...

[GregM]

So off to Topeka we went.

As for the move to FP from EP Here's one of the most typical statements made by SCCA...........
"Based on the Performance Potential "

" Based on the PERFORMANCE Potential the Neon is classified in EP " So when asked what they thought the potential was they apparently think the car will make under the limited prep rules over 200hp. They have no DATA to based this on whatsoever !!!!

So its a long winter and if anyone's bored and wants to waste money building a EP Neon only to verify to the CRB its not competitive and then wait years for it to be moved go for it !

I will send in another request along with my dyno sheets from two types of dyno's to the CRB along with printed out testing at my home track from my DL1 from my FULLY prepared ITA NEON after it gets the fresh motor.

The Regional Classes should be reflected in the National Classifications. That is ITS moves to ITA then so should EP move to FP as the same cars are represented.

This is why the Club is graying and we are losing younger membership. Why do we need 40 year old cars racing at the National level ????

[GregM]

February Fastrack
Production
1. Reclassify the 95-98 LP Neon to FP ( Meindl / Sherman ) We wish to monitor the cars performance in EP

So the two letters all went in in October and here we lost another season. Nobody will build a full tilt EP Neon until it gets competitive in ITA. Cars it can't beat in ITA are in FP not EP. Seem's logical.

Yet a Miata is in EP,FP,SM,SSM,T3,SSB,GT3,ITA,ITS did I miss any ?????

If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs.

[lateapex911]

If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs. [/b]

You'll probably do better as ITA cars routinley run faster times than the EP regional guys....for the most part. Certainly you'll get a better trophy.

Keep in mind that there are differences between the categories that affect the classing, so while it might appear that the car should parallel another ITA car, it might not make sense once you factor in the allowable mods.

For example, lots of ITA cars are 1.6 litres, but the Neon is much larger. (20%) Something is restraining that power, and perhaps it can be changed in Prod, where it coudn't be in IT.

Of course, on the other hand, IT uses a mostly mathmatical process to create repeatable classing, while the Prod guys use on track performace and intuition.

[Rabbit07]

For example, lots of ITA cars are 1.6 litres, but the Neon is much larger. (20%) Something is restraining that power, and perhaps it can be changed in Prod, where it coudn't be in IT.

Of course, on the other hand, IT uses a mostly mathmatical process to create repeatable classing, while the Prod guys use on track performace and intuition.
[/b]

There is nothing holding back the power. Power is the only thing it has going for it!

[GregM]

There is nothing holding back the power. Power is the only thing it has going for it!
[/b]

BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor its outsanding performance.

[Rabbit07]

BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor its outsanding performance.
[/b]

I plan on doing the same thing

[lateapex911]

BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor its outsanding performance. [/b]

Well, first, on track performance is full of pitfalls when it comes to monitering performance, and....as you said, you're running an ITA car. Why should they give any weight to your results> You SHOULD be off the pace, right?

[Rabbit07]

Well, first, on track performance is full of pitfalls when it comes to monitering performance, and....as you said, you're running an ITA car. Why should they give any weight to your results> You SHOULD be off the pace, right?
[/b]

The didference in the allowable things that you can do to the EP Neon aren't going to make up for the difference in lap times. Besides, who says that the car I will run in EP is an ITA car

Maybe I put the cam in and up the compression ratio with a milled head?

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh)

[lateapex911]

If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs. [/b]

Um....you did?

Guess I'm confused. The Prod guys always do that to me....with three different weights for the same car, and THEN they talk about limited prep versions of that car....sheesh! .LOL.

[GregM]

Maybe I put the cam in and up the compression ratio with a milled head?

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh)
[/b]

Super Bingo

Its not like I don't have a fleet of 4 Neon's lurking down the block from the track
You never know which one I'll show up in.................

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh) as well...........................

[racerb]

Here's the names of the Advisory Comittee memebers
Production
Jon Brakke, Chairman
Larry Funk
Kevin Allen
Eric Krueger
Tim Linerud
Tom Feller
Mike Cummings
Kevin Dennis
Liaisons: Culbertson & Dowie


Ok guys, look at this list of names carefully, hearin lies your problem.
These are some of the same folks you'd be competeing against in Prod,
so guess what their thinking, well it's HECK NO to you!! It's the same old
crap I went through several years ago, when I tried to get my '89 Accord
LXi moved from ITA to ITB. Well I gave up trying, cause the Volvo boys
had too many Reps on the board, to let it pass. As long as your not playing
on their swingset, then you can use any of the playground equiptment
you want, but make one move and the bullies take over!! As you know,
the Accord finally got moved, but for me it was 5 years and 2 cars too late.

[lateapex911]

Your accord may, or may not have been rejected due to "turf protectionism", but, more likely it was because back then there was no repeatable and defined process. We have it now, and it makes things much more objective. THe prod folks have no such thing that I am aware of, so results might be fine, or might not be fine, but perception will always be the issue.

Convince the Prod Ad Hoc to devise and use a real repeatable process, and I suggest you'd have more confidence in their decisions. (THe ITAC recently forward our process to them for a look..,maybe they can adapt or use the basic framework?)

[Rabbit07]

(THe ITAC recently forward our process to them for a look..,maybe they can adapt or use the basic framework?)
[/b]

Thanks Jake.

By the way, I for one, do like the way things seem to be going with IT. Great Job!