October Fastrack is up

[gprodracer]

But that's the point!

The people at the top end of the grid will not be affected because the have, or are willing to spend what it takes. God bless them, but this isn't about them. It's about the average joe club racer who will get priced out of regional competition. See James letter from above for examples. These $4000 or $5000 Prod or IT cars are todays prices. When the National "spending wars" start, those prices will escalate accordingly.
Again, for those who seek National recognition, your avenue is Production. While I see the "moving target" argument has some validity, it is not as bad as some would have you believe. Most of those people are digruntled racers who believe that it's the system, and it couldn't possibly be that someone built something better or faster, or God forbid, someone just flat outdrove them.

Thank you Matt, and James for posting better examples of what I was trying to point out.

Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

all i'm saying is make a decision based on what's good for the club and IT across the entire country for the majority of drivers. NOT what's good for the east coast people who are frustrated because they're spending runoffs level money without the runoffs level recognition (which is what I think this is really about).
[/b]

I will agree with some of what you are saying. SOME. I want to build a program and go to the runoffs. I LIKE the IT rules. More than SS/T/SM and way less than Prod. It allows ome creativity without being sneaky and a little engineering to boot. I think it rocks.

The converse of what you are saying Trav, which is just as true IMHO, is that the people who aren't preparing to the max - because they don't have to - want to protect their sandbox. The fact is simple, someone drives into your Region in a top dollar car that is well driven - and you get sand kicked in your face. You either have to move to another sandbox or you have to start working out.

I think we understand the issues. I support the idea Jake wrote - make SOME of IT National, allow those of us who like the ruleset to go to the show - and keep some of the other classes Regional so that there is a 'inexpensive' place to race.

[Knestis]

If we shifted to a plan that just sent the highest-participation classes to the RubOffs, it would de facto create the solution Andy suggests - maybe. Even ITC might have enough more cars nationwide than some of the current National-eligible classes to bump them off the dance card.

The point made a couple of pages ago about National status - and attention - increasing the possibility of creep is a pretty good one. You won't get ANYONE more purist than ol' Kirk in terms of where IT came from and what it should be, and I'll throw myself in front of the creep bus any time it becomes necessary. However, conflating issues of creep and the competitive pressures on budgets due to class popularity only serves to muddy the water, I'm afraid.

I can STILL build a $5000 Spec Miata, run schools and regionals, get my license, burn up some full-tread RA-1s, and put more miles on the original engine and tired parts. NOTHING that popularity and/or creep has done to the class keeps me out out of the party. Ditto ITB or ITC, or any number of Production classes for that matter. I suppose that it's true that SM, as a national market influence, may have increased the value of pooped-out Miati and wrecking yard parts - I'll grant you that.

K

[tnord]

The converse of what you are saying Trav, which is just as true IMHO, is that the people who aren't preparing to the max - because they don't have to - want to protect their sandbox. The fact is simple, someone drives into your Region in a top dollar car that is well driven - and you get sand kicked in your face. You either have to move to another sandbox or you have to start working out.

I think we understand the issues. I support the idea Jake wrote - make SOME of IT National, allow those of us who like the ruleset to go to the show - and keep some of the other classes Regional so that there is a 'inexpensive' place to race.
[/b]

i agree that for the most part, we're all arguing with our own self-interests in mind. there are top-dollar cars in this region (including a brand spaking new all-out OPM CRX), but luckily, some of us are still able to overcome that particular car with driving. we are quite vulnerable though.

i know i've said it 10x already, and you've already acknowledged the issue, but i can't stress it enough. don't bend over everywhere west of Pennsylvania so that the Atlantic Coast can give us the high-hard one.

ps - kirk you'll be DFL with that $5000 SM anywhere in the country, regional or national. don't you agree that there's a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?

[Knestis]

...and THAT is - again - the crux of the issue, thank you very much. You are talking about having a chance to WIN, not a chance to PARTICIPATE, without building a car to the max allowed by the rules. A national rule set has no obligation to try to keep the lid on spending on a class because it simply is not possible to do so.

If you think Spec Claimer Miata will fly, then it could work. Make it a requirement that any entrant is obligated to sell his car at the end of any race weekend for $10,000 and folks will be loathe to spend $11,000 building one. Yeah - like the SCCA culture will accept THAT...

K

[tnord]

you can participate in just about any class in SCCA for $5000, so the point that the cost of entry doesn't change when a class goes national is rather irrelevant imo.

[JoshS]

ps - kirk you'll be DFL with that $5000 SM anywhere in the country, regional or national. don't you agree that there's a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?
[/b]

You seem to think that no one outside of the northeast wants IT classes at National races, but I'm in CA and I support it 100%.

And also out here in San Francisco Region regional races we get 60+ Spec Miatas each race weekend. There are PLENTY of $5K cars running, your basic high-miles street cars with cages. Sure, they aren't running at the front, but no matter your SM budget, out here, there's someone to race against.

At the National races, there are absolutely no $5K cars running. Which makes my point. Low-budget regional racers can continue to race and have fun, at regional races, and they don't need to try to match the spending levels of the front-running national programs in order to do it.

[ddewhurst]

K, I don't believe you would be DFL with your $5,000 Miata because I don't believe YOU can build a Spec Miata for $5,000.

Donor car $2,000

Hard roof $1,000

Bolt in cage $1,000

Shall I continue ?

You finish the cost list

David

[Andy Bettencourt]

You can't build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...

[mattbatson]

It is funny reading thru here, from post to post...some arent paying attention to what the other's are saying...

One poster say's you'll finish DFL with a 5K car, then someone post's that we all want to win with a 5K car...
It's is interesting reading.... :P

Yeah, for the most part, you'll finish DFL with a 5K SM (or production car for that matter), but not necessarily with an ITB car....
In fact, there was Bildon's ITB VW for sale in the classifieds for around 7K, and this is a pointy end of the field car...for way, way less then 10K.

Your not going to keep many newbies interested in racing if they go a year or two finishing DFL all because IT has become super serious. Now they have to put another 7 or 10K into their car just to finish mid-pack (driving skill aside). This will discourage a lot of new young racers

I have to think there are a lot of people out there like me who got into this on a dime...and plan to run this way for a couple of years...then spend more money (if it comes ) and get more serious as I get faster and better....For alot of people, this may mean moving up to production or SM.

Oh well, this is becoming a and I think there are just going to be differing opinions no matter what.
I imagine the SCCA will do what they want in the end.
Maybe by then I will have the money to get serious anyways and will not care if it affects the class

[gprodracer]

Now we are getting somewhere!

Both sides of the fence are now peering on the other side to see that both have valid opinions. I agree with Kirk about the traditional IT rules, and what the origins of the IT class were. I agree with Andy that IT rules "rock". I agree with Travis that one coast shouldn't make the decision for the whole country.

We all have some common ground here. We all want to see IT grow and prosper. We all have different opinions as to how to make that happen, but that's cool, it's all good. That is what is so great about these boards, is the exchange of ideas, and information. Didn't ITR come about from discussions here?

My concern for IT comes from the exclusion of the average Joe (relative term) budgeted racer that is just starting out. I was that guy, and we have to give him a chance to get going. I also understand the larger budgeted teams, as I was one of those for several years, and could afford (and had the time) to go racing all over the Southeast 2-3 times a month, 11 months out of the year. After a huge financial setback, and having to back off racing for a few years, I am back with a limited budget Production car program. My heart will always be with IT, as this was the class that was affordable enough to allow me to get started in wheel to wheel racing.

I just don't want to see it go down the same path as other classes, where the average guy can't even afford the minimum investment to give it a shot. Like Travis pointed out, I'm not talking about a winning car, just one that doesn't finish last every time. From there they can figure out where they can go in their class with what budget, and what amount of effort they are willing to put in to accomplish their personal goals.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Discuss please.

Thanks,

Mark

[mattbatson]

So far as the arguements on cost to build goes...
I dont think you will find a single one of the race car's in the classifieds that sells for what they have in it.

whether it is an IT, production, or SM...you can always buy a built one for a fraction of what it actually cost the guy to build it...

The point is, once the class becomes national, you will not see many sub 7K IT cars for sale anymore...The price will go up, just like it did in SM.
Trust me on this.

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I'm sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right

[Andy Bettencourt]

S

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I'm sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right [/b]

It depends what area of the country you are from. A $10K ITA car in the NE is as good as a $10K SM. That is why I think the opinions are so varied on this - because the perspectives are equally varied.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We all have some common ground here. We all want to see IT grow and prosper. We all have different opinions as to how to make that happen, but that's cool, it's all good. That is what is so great about these boards, is the exchange of ideas, and information. Didn't ITR come about from discussions here?

Mark [/b]

Mark,

I think you mention something here that should be mentioned again. We all want IT to grow and prosper. EXCELLENT comment. But I submit the following:

IF IT grows and prospers, the cost of competition will go up. We saw that happen in SM over it's lifecycle from inception to National status - albiet in an accelerated timeframe. What is the RESULT of the growth in popularity of IT? I think we are seeing it in ITA right now. There are 8-10 cars people can site that they think could have a chance at a checkered should the prep and driving be up to it...it is drawing record fields in a lot of Regions - and every time one of these cars is added to the grid, it usually isn't a shoe-string effort. So what is that result of popularity?

Secondly, and more importantly, we must ask ourselves IF going National will actually allow our category to grow. It would seem that some would come, and some would go. Would it be a net positive? Would be just be cannabalizing from other categories to bolster this one? National status for IT may not bring new members to the club - THAT is what we are looking for.

Take a look at NASA. I have said that both groups can and will exist simultainiously, there is PLENTY of money being thrown around over there. The recent National Championships will bring more interest - and more money - to NASA...eliminating some of the run-whatcha-brung attraction it has/had.

Excellent question though. Even though *I* would like to see IT go National, is it really a net win for the Club? That is the question we need to answer before I would cast my official vote.

[Knestis]

You can't build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...[/b]

Sorry - If I'd thought this was about how much it cost to ACTUALLY build a SM, I would have used accurate figures. It's not - it was an illustrative point made with a little hyperbole, and I'm pretty sure Travis recognized that when he responded, too.

We all want to see IT grow and prosper. [/b]

I don't believe this is the case. Sorry. The mechanism that drives up cost is popularity, which fuels competition - both on the track and at the cash register. Most of the arguments here that costs have gone up and are "hurting someone" are predicated on the desire to maintain relative competitive advantage without spending more dough. It's cloaked in language that makes it sound less self serving but there are plenty of people racing in plenty of SCCA classes who would prefer to be third of six cars in class rather than 15th of 30 (EDIT - spending the same money).

* * *

Now, let me clarify something. I don't have strong feelings one way or another about whether IT should be a National class or not - because I don't think it would change what I do. My priorities, budget, and other considerations are met doing my current thing, so I have no desire to "go to the big show." This, even while in the abstract, it is bothersome to me that some of the most popular classes in the Club aren't recognized with the stature that National recognition arguably brings.

K

[Greg Amy]

You can't build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...
[/b]

The SSM I built last year is a fine example. I paid $3500 for a 1.8L with hardtop; by the time I done I had ~$10,500 in the car (I spent good money with Kessler on a cage specifically to allow me to fit into the car.) And, that didn't include wheels and tires... - GregA

On edit:My feelings about IT vis-a-vis National are mixed. We are fortunate in that we have the skillsets and motivation to build a car for just about any category we choose. We chose IT because we like the ruleset. I've done "The National Thing" so I got that off my back, but at this point in time I'd like to see IT go National because I already have a Nationally-competitive car. If I were slogging about with a car not completely prepped to the rules - and not competitive - I'd probably lean towards staying Regional simply so I could maintain "parity" within my current group without spending money.

So my thoughts on the matter are not so nearly about "what's good for the class" as much as it is "what's good for me": make it National and I can flip that little rocket for some serious coin...

[gprodracer]

Well Kirk, don't be sorry if you don't want IT to grow and prosper. That is why we all hve differing opinions on the "National" topic. I first entered racing in IT BECAUSE it was not a national class. I knew that I didn't have the skills, nor the budget to compete (not win, just compete) in any national class at that point. I couldn't afford race gas, I couldn't afford slicks, hell, I couldn't afford a fuel cell at first. I ran on worn out regular BFG street tires, and graduated up to Spec Racer (Renault) Bridgestone take offs. I cna remember taking 1.25 seconds off my lap times, with SR tires! Wow, I'm finally running on real "race" tires!

Andy, those are the people who I'm referring to who will make IT grow, and that is the type of entry level class that IT created originally. In my early years, all I wanted to do was finish "not last". Lets keep the ARRC as the "National Championship" of IT. From the perspective of many of the IT community I know, a win there has just as much prestige as a win in Topeka running in a class with 8 cars.

IMHO, we have to have a true "entry level" class to keep our membership growing. IT has always been that class. If the majority want it to go National, so be it, but please then form another regional only class that adheres to the original set of IT rules, and allows inexpensive cars to have a chance to compete.

Comments or suggestions?

Mark

[Fi3555]

I agree, popularity of a class does bring on competition and with it more attention to driving skill and car prep i.e. $$$. But competition is a GOOD thing. Don't you really want to know how good you are at driving and car prep ?? No or little competition would be like playing Chess with students at the special-ed school!
Sure, you will beat them most everytime but just how good are you ! Look at the driving in SM, awesome tallent at the front and there are many also-rans in the race, having a good time all-the-way.
I say that IT national racing wouldn't be a bad thing, only another avenue for competitors to send their skills to a higher level. There would still be regionals for the new and the not as competitive folks.


Tim
#97 ITB Golf

[Knestis]

Well Kirk, don't be sorry if you don't want IT to grow and prosper. ...[/b]

I hope you know that isn't what I said, and are just playing word games. If that's what you really THINK I said, go back and read it again. I ran my first IT race in 20 years ago this past spring, and you are going to have to look long and hard to find someone who's a more vocal advocate for the category. Please don't be insulting.

K

[gprodracer]

Kirk,

As the "master of the word games" I thought you'd appreciate the out of context quote. My bad, my apologies, there was absolutely no insult intended. I fully know your position, and appreciate all you've done for the class. We have very similar views on many of the topics posted here. You have 3 years of IT racing on me, but I'm still pretty much "old school" when it comes to rules that change the basic philosophy of the class.

Again, I just don't think that the spending war that will occur if IT goes National will help grow the class, in fact, it just might keep people out due to the "trickle down" cost escalation.

And, as stated before, I might just be full of crap.

Mark