October Fastrack is up

[Fi3555]

The blessing of SCCA Nat. status doesn't mean jack ! Just look at the ARRC . The level of competitiveness is equal to the runoffs;fine driving and well prepared cars !! There are cars at both races running at the front and some running 3 to 5 secs. off the mark. How accomplished your driving is and how much time and money you spend on R&D is the real outcome. Sure money can make one faster but it rarely buys skill. But life's not fair so we all need to drive well and hope to win the lottery !!
Good luck at the ARRC and/or next season !

Tim
#97 ITB Golf
#11 GP Golf 2007

[mattbatson]

I agree with Bill and others. IT shouldnt go national...

IT is the whole reason I got into racing in the first place. If there was no IT, I would still be watching from the sidelines. Nice and cheap.
I like the class because it isnt as "serious" as the national classes. It seems that if racers know they will get good T.V. coverage at the runoffs with a top ten finish, they will go very, very deep into their wallets. The prestige of being in SportsCar magazine and possibly on T.V. is what causes people to spend over 50 thousand on a race car.

IT is where it is at for the entry level racer, such as myself...
More of a low stress kind of racing. No one is fighting tooth and nail for a regional class, or spending their childrens college fund.

I know that in the future I will move up to production or SM. I also know that this is when I will have to start spending the money. And everything will get more serious and stressfull.

Maybe in a year or two

[Knestis]

Sorry, Mark but I think that your anticipated outcomes derive from faulty assumptions. It will still cost exactly the same to buy a $4000 ITC Scirocco as it currently costs to buy a $4000 Scirocco - about $4000.

It is POSSIBLE that increased interest in IT cars, were the class to go national, would increase the resale value in the market but that kind of force would "float all boats," giving the guy that now has to pay $5000 for that same car the chance to sell it for more, too.

Anyone who was drinking the $5000 Spec Miata KoolAid was ignoring the reality that as soon as it got popular, the spending wars would be on. That's what happens.

In inverse of that is, when a class is NOT so popular, it becomes less expensive to be competitive, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what folks are using as their benchmark, when they worry out loud about "costs going up in IT." I frankly hear that mostly from people who race IT cars in places where there just aren't very many - where they can run competitively without having to pony up for expensive parts. Back during the restrictor wars, we heard from a guy who was running an ITS BMW 325 in the Northwest, who described a car that was about 60% done. He can get away with that, and be competitive in the SCCA wasteland that is NW Region, but that doesn't represent reality in a lot of places.

Now, the question - posed earlier - about which geographic reality matters more when making a decision for the whole National program IS a good one, about which reasonable people can differ.

K

[gprodracer]

Kirk,

You are obviously more well versed in the climate of competitive IT cars in todays environment. Again, my personal opinion about the direction of where IT is heading is only my opinion about securing the growth of the class, not what may ultimately be the best path. Your example of the $4000 Scirocco actually proves part of my point...that the extra $1000 in initial cost to get started may be the inhibitor for many people to get started in racing. Buy a car for $4000, and spend the other $1000 for drivers suit, helmet, and school entry fees. Am I making sense here?

As for the Spec Miata "Kool Aid", compare the original one page rule set with the current pages of rules they have now. Again, I am admittedly a sort of purist, with the (here's that word again) original "intent" of the formation of the class. Lots of cash and lobbying for more "liberal" interpretations of the original rules,plus the rush to make the class National have driven the costs of building a mid pack car up thru the roof.

I just fear that IT going National will produce the same effect, and it will cause more harm than good. If it does go National, then I hope I am completely wrong, and IT grows stronger. My question about what class will take over as the "entry level" class that the average Joe can begin in has not been answered though.

I'm open to all ideas, so let me know.

Mark

[JoshS]

My question about what class will take over as the "entry level" class that the average Joe can begin in has not been answered though.
[/b]

IT will still be the entry level category (more than one class, of course.) As I asked in response to your previous post, why wouldn't it be?

Is it that you're expecting this average joe newbie to be able to win in his first race? That's unrealistic, National status or not.

[mattbatson]

I have an idea..

Our new entry level class will be what IT used to be...same car's as in IT now...but no ECU's, no open final drives, no coil overs, no engine modifications (like port matching, .5 compression bump, etc.).

Then national IT could be like a "pre-production" class :P

The new class could be called "improved showroom stock".
Basically, you throw some shocks and springs and brake pads at your car and get out on the racetrack!!

I would sell my IT car in a second to join that class!

[gprodracer]

Josh,

What I have tried to get across to everyone is that if IT were to go National, the average cost of ANY class of IT car will increase as the level of spending to compete at the front goes up. That "might" make the difference in whether the average newbie can now afford to come race with us. From my own standpoint, had it cost $1000 more to attend my 1st drivers school, it would have delayed me for a year.

That is my point.... that the $$$ wars will escalate very quickly, and I'm afraid that it might keep more people out than draw people in.

Of course, I may be completely full of crap.

Keep fighting for what you feel is in the best interest of IT.


Good Luck,

Mark

[JoshS]

What I have tried to get across to everyone is that if IT were to go National, the average cost of ANY class of IT car will increase as the level of spending to compete at the front goes up. That "might" make the difference in whether the average newbie can now afford to come race with us. From my own standpoint, had it cost $1000 more to attend my 1st drivers school, it would have delayed me for a year.
[/b]

I guess I'm just dense tonight. I don't get it. Why won't the same $4K Scirocco still work at that first school, or for that matter, in the first couple of seasons of racing? Why does the allowance for people to drive IT cars at National races make the cost go up?

I understand that the cost might go up to win (but as I said earlier, I don't think the difference at regional races will change much), but I just can't fathom why the cost would go up to go to a school or just to compete at your average regional race weekend. The rules wouldn't be changing, and the same cars would still be legal.

What am I missing?

[Bill Miller]

I feel pretty confident in saying that the winning ITS car at the ARRC this year will cost more than the winning FP car at the Runoffs this year, but the FP car is faster.

Bill (Denton),

Having IT get National status is not going to increase the cost of getting into the game. I've said it several times, you've got plenty of folks running National-eligible classes, at Regionals, having a blast, as well as good racing, for less than it would cost them to run Nationals. You don't have National guys comming in and 'poaching' at the Regionals. That goes for Prod cars, AS cars, SS cars, Touring cars, SRFs, etc., etc. Those are several examples that contradict the claim by you and others that the folks that run Nationals in IT will come back and push the Regional guys farther down the grid. And please, ITS is hardly what I'd call an 'entry level' class, unless you want to run in the lower half of the field. And what do you think is going to happen w/ ITR next year? $50k+ cars will be all over the place.

You also say that you'd rather run as a mid-pack car in the current system, than at the back of the pack at Nationals, or at the front of what you refer to as '2nd tier' Regional races. Don't you see that as the least bit condescending and insulting to the people that currently choose to run Regional races w/ National-eligible cars?

I think what a lot of people are really afraid of, and 'afraid' may not be the right word. But anyway, here's the way I see it. People like the idea of big IT fields at Regionals, and are afraid those fields will dwindle if IT goes National.

Look at AS. It started as a Regional class, and got the numbers and went National. How many guys that run Nationals in AS do you see show up at Regionals? Did costs go up for the guys that run at the pointy end of the National fields? Yep, but top National-level AS cars are still cheaper than top ITS cars, and are about what top ITA cars cost. Yet AS is faster than both of those classes. I just looked at some of the results of the MARRS races from Summit Point this year, they get about as many AS cars as they do ITS cars.

Kirk pretty much hit the nail on the head, and others have echoed it. It won't cost more for a top-level IT car (if IT went National), than it does today, in areas where there is a high level of competition. Look at the NARRC, MARRS, and SARRC series. The top of the ITS and ITA grids are all pretty much max-boogie cars w/ serious development efforts and some very skilled drivers. It's other areas, where there isn't that much competition, where guys are running at the front w/ less than full-tilt efforts.

[Z3_GoCar]

I guess I'm just dense tonight. I don't get it. Why won't the same $4K Scirocco still work at that first school, or for that matter, in the first couple of seasons of racing? Why does the allowance for people to drive IT cars at National races make the cost go up?

I understand that the cost might go up to win (but as I said earlier, I don't think the difference at regional races will change much), but I just can't fathom why the cost would go up to go to a school or just to compete at your average regional race weekend. The rules wouldn't be changing, and the same cars would still be legal.

What am I missing?
[/b]

Josh,

It's the same reason that our 40k track house sold for 650k, when the market's inflated in one end it draws up the cost in all sectors. The $4K Scirocco is based on a used race car, but if the guy's at the front are getting $40k for their full prep and multiple podium Scirocco, do you really think the guy selling the just adaquate Scirocco would just settle for $4k? HE!! NO he'd be a fool to ask less than $10k - $15k. Hey besides the finder banging in SM, I looked at purchasing a consistant top 10 finishing SM. It was a sister car to Justin Hall's who got $35k for the one he won the West Coast series with. But for close to the same money as the sister car I got my Z3 instead. Sure it's got the 2.8liter motor, but ITR's around the corner and after a season of ITE I'll be ready for a change. My point is that because Hall got 35k for his car, the sister car was worth more too, and that trickle down stopped me from purchasing a SM to convert into an ITA Miata. Trickle down affects all race cars even the ones that just meet the letter of the safety law to get out on the track.

My fear is, and this may seem ironic to some, that a switch to National status will lead to a faster rules creep. At the heart of IT is the stock motor, transmission, brakes, and suspension. Most of these aspects are fiddled with in Production and GT. IT's appeal is in the allowance of minor bolt-on's that don't really make the cars that much faster, but increase the race car like nature of our racers. I'd been interested in IT since the late '80s when I'd first heard about it. So I feel like this has been a long time in the making.

James

[lateapex911]

I'm confused when I read that IT becoming national would eliminate the "Entry level" category. Why?? It can't be financial. I can go buy $5000 prod cars all day long. But I won't...the ruleset, and the stability turn me off.

But I COULD, if I didn't care about my level of competiveness, go buy a Prod car as my "entry level" efffort.

But people don't typically choose Prod as an entry. Why? Because the prep level is beyond many.

So.............if we don't change the IT ruleset and prep level, WHY would it cease to be entry level???? Answer...it won't. Now, if it's more popular, of course it will be harder to be the fastest guy, so a newbie, or an expert, will have more trouble winning. That's just pure statistics.

What I'm reading is that some resistance is being offered, as Kirk points out, on a geographic basis. And of course, I suppose it sucks to be doing well, as the BMW guy in the NW was doing with a partial build, then being relegated to the back when more serious efforts show up, forcing you to get more serious. On the other hand.......you could look at it another way...some guys in other parts of the country are running the same effort, but have never even sniffed a trophy. Glass half full? or half empty? Seems to me it's dependent on where you are.

What if..............we made ITR, ITS, and ITA National, and left ITB and ITC Regional only?

[lateapex911]

Josh,


My fear is, and this may seem ironic to some, that a switch to National status will lead to a faster rules creep.

James
[/b]

But why?? Sure, there might need to be some rules wording that needs to be tightened up, but why creep?

I follow your concept on the trickle down, but it's also dependent on build costs, and the cheap entrycars you mention are cheap builds. Certain car costs will go up, but it will still be possible to buy a car off the street cheap, throw a cage in it and go racing.

[Bill Miller]

I'm confused when I read that IT becoming national would eliminate the "Entry level" category. Why?? It can't be financial. I can go buy $5000 prod cars all day long. But I won't...the ruleset, and the stability turn me off.

But I COULD, if I didn't care about my level of competiveness, go buy a Prod car as my "entry level" efffort.

But people don't typically choose Prod as an entry. Why? Because the prep level is beyond many.

So.............if we don't change the IT ruleset and prep level, WHY would it cease to be entry level???? Answer...it won't. Now, if it's more popular, of course it will be harder to be the fastest guy, so a newbie, or an expert, will have more trouble winning. That's just pure statistics.

What I'm reading is that some resistance is being offered, as Kirk points out, on a geographic basis. And of course, I suppose it sucks to be doing well, as the BMW guy in the NW was doing with a partial build, then being relegated to the back when more serious efforts show up, forcing you to get more serious. On the other hand.......you could look at it another way...some guys in other parts of the country are running the same effort, but have never even sniffed a trophy. Glass half full? or half empty? Seems to me it's dependent on where you are.


[/b]

You pretty much hit it Jake. I bought my HP Rabbit for <$5k, and looking at it, I would call it an entry-level car. Sure, it had some nice stuff on it (lexan windows, fiberglass hood, Wilwood brakes, etc.), but it&#39;s a pretty basic car. Did it cost more to build than I paid for it? Sure, but show me a used race car that doesn&#39;t, regardless of class. I didn&#39;t think it was going to be a top National car when I bought it. I bought it because I wanted to race w/ my friends that had Prod cars, and ran the MARRS series. And looking at it objectively, it wouldn&#39;t cost me any more to run than my old ITB Rabbit GTI would. In some ways, it may be more economical, because I can do things like use better hubs that don&#39;t need to be replaced every 4-6 weekends. And an 11:1 VW motor w/ an IT-prep head, and a limited cam lift is not some 16:1 hand grenade British tractor motor. I&#39;ll probably save money on tires too, because instead of $600 - $700 for a new set of Hoosier R6&#39;s, I can get take-off slicks from the National guys for $100 - $200 a set, and they&#39;ll last just as long. It&#39;s all about what and where you want to run, as well as what your overall program is. I could care less if I ever go to the Runoffs, but it&#39;s nice to have the option of running a National or two that&#39;s close to me.

What if..............we made ITR, ITS, and ITA National, and left ITB and ITC Regional only?[/b]

Please explain your logic behind this one. Is it because there are primarily new cars in ITR/S/A? Is it because they seem to be better subscribed (and probably are)? What?


As far as the rules creep thing, that&#39;s another red herring. What kind of rules creep has SS gone through in the last 5-10 years? You can&#39;t point to Prod and say that will happen to IT, if it goes National. Could it? Sure, but I think we have some pretty sharp people on the ITAC, and given their track record, I don&#39;t see it happening (unless it gets pushed down from the top).

[tnord]

this is so frustrating. i&#39;ve been through this before.

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more. and even you guys at the front will end up spending more to keep your cars fully prepped at all times because there is so much more at stake. and oh yeah, national entry fee&#39;s and liscensing are more expensive too.


actually.....whatever.......i&#39;ve fought these types of battles before, and it&#39;s just not worth the effort. seeya on the grid next year......maybe.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have said this before, going National wouldn&#39;t change my budget one dollar. I use my tires for 8 heat cycles and my car is maxed out. I attend 6-8 test days a year in an effort to tweak suspension and driver. Where I end up on the results sheet is the best I can do that day, 1st or last.

I think the proponents of National classification want a real Championship event. Plain and simple. The thought process on my side is that the ruleset is the ruleset. The parameters are set. If you are &#39;lucky&#39; enough to be in a Region where you you don&#39;t have to prep to 100% to be at the front, you are exactly that, LUCKY. There is nothing stopping anyone from driving up in a Bimmerworld E36 or a Flatout Miata or an ISC RX-7 and running in your class. What do you do then? Find another &#39;easy&#39; class - or step your game up?

Will the AVERAGE prep level of IT cars go up across the country? I think so, but you are already constrained by those prep standards now, you have just been LUCKY.

The IT ruleset is awesome. It has it&#39;s issues, but it is better than SS and WAY better (for me) than Prod. Bring your A game. Oh ya, a class like:

but no ECU&#39;s, no open final drives, no coil overs, no engine modifications (like port matching, .5 compression bump, etc.).[/b]

is effectively Touring.

As has been said, you will still be able to buy a cheap IT car to get into it. If you are happy with racing in the middle, the more power to you. If you are upset that you put a 75% effort in and can&#39;t win, I suggest the only thing that will satisfy you is a government job. In anything we do, we must see what it COULD take to be the best at it, and prepare accordingly. The groundwork is in place.

[lateapex911]

this is so frustrating. i&#39;ve been through this before.

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more. and even you guys at the front will end up spending more to keep your cars fully prepped at all times because there is so much more at stake. and oh yeah, national entry fee&#39;s and liscensing are more expensive too.
actually.....whatever.......i&#39;ve fought these types of battles before, and it&#39;s just not worth the effort. seeya on the grid next year......maybe.
[/b]

Ahh...Travis, now I&#39;m getting it. I italicized the key part.

I used to run my RX-7 and be OK ...in a 20 car ITA field at Lime Rock, I&#39;d be top 6. Then the game started stepping up. Everyone saw Blaney kick butt in his CRX, and Serra kick Blaneys butt, (OK, not kick, and not all the time) in his Integras, and the next thing you know, I was running faster times, but qualifying 12th, behind under prepped CRXs and Integras.

To me, that was a failure in the classification process, and I tried to do something about it.

But conversly, even though the classification issues are largely fixed, I bet I&#39;m still 12th, LOL. Why?? Because other cars have now beeen given a chance, and they have stepped up their game. We have an NX2000, Integras, Miatas, CRXs, and on any given day, the win could go to one of a number of cars. And it&#39;s thick right behind them too.

But thats cool...my times are better, but I&#39;m gridded worse. I was lucky before that there wasn&#39;t the depth of fast cars, and I was able to sneak some good runs in. But I&#39;ve never gotten a trophy for 6th, nor 12th, and the racing is great with many of the same guys I raced for 12th with. Still fun. Just the number has changed.

And thats not such a bad thing, unless I need to feed my ego....but 6th won&#39;t do that.

[lateapex911]

Please explain your logic behind this one. Is it because there are primarily new cars in ITR/S/A? Is it because they seem to be better subscribed (and probably are)? What?

[/b]

Well Bill, I was really just thinking out loud. Seems to me that the newer cars are mostly in R, S and A. The top brass has issues with is having old cars at the Runoffs, which is why (one of the reasons, as I understand it) the rejection of the IT National idea came from up top. B and C do have older cars, and subscription is starting to fade a bit, esp in C. I think in the areas of the country that IT itself is doing well, B does well too.

But B and C, more than the rest, are great entry level classes, due to the fact that you can buy built solid cars all day long for 4 or 5K, and actually go and grab a trophy or two with those cars. And they are cheap to run, smaller cheaper tires, and the light weight on the consumable parts like brakes helps and so on.

So it seems like we&#39;d be tilting at windmills to get C and B at the Runoffs anyway, so maybe, I thought, an idea that would satisfy both camps would be to emphasize each class for it&#39;s strengths.

We have discussed it before, I&#39;m not the originator. If it&#39;s a good idea, I&#39;ll name the guy who wrote it down first, LOL.

[mattbatson]

Mr Gulick, I think you and some others on here are missing the point that many are trying to make...

Once IT goes national it immediately becomes a class for the "win at all costs, money is no object, built to the hilt" crowd...

This will happen because of the "promise" of being on T.V. and in SportsCar.

You underestimate the ego of your average human being (and I&#39;m not simply talking about racers here).

I honestly think you will have many racers moving into this class as a "cheaper" alternative to going to the "big show". People will start to spend money like it is going out of style.

What this means is that it will be harder for those of us on smaller budgets to be somewhat competitive. Now, I dont mean winning races...I&#39;m talking about being midpack or higher. "Somewhat" competitive...

I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it to be even a midpacker...

You guy&#39;s talk about buying a 5000 dollar production car...Now, this is a car that is in a class that allows expensive engine work and suspension modifications...right?
Then how in the h$ll do you explain the fact that the absolute cheapest SM car you can buy is around twice that cost?

And to buy a competitive one you need to spend over 20K? This is for a class with a pretty much stock motor and very little suspension mods!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, me and several others on here know the reason for this

Once this class goes national it becomes a "serious" class, where there is more to winning than a plastic trophy...there is pride and ego now much more involved in the equation.

I say, keep it cheap, keep it simple, and keep it fun and casual

By the way, I agree with keeping B and C regional...but that is kind of selfish on my part since I&#39;m in B

[tnord]

If you are &#39;lucky&#39; enough to be in a Region where you you don&#39;t have to prep to 100% to be at the front, you are exactly that, LUCKY. There is nothing stopping anyone from driving up in a Bimmerworld E36 or a Flatout Miata or an ISC RX-7 and running in your class. What do you do then? Find another &#39;easy&#39; class - or step your game up?

Will the AVERAGE prep level of IT cars go up across the country? I think so, but you are already constrained by those prep standards now, you have just been LUCKY.
[/b]

all i&#39;m saying is make a decision based on what&#39;s good for the club and IT across the entire country for the majority of drivers. NOT what&#39;s good for the east coast people who are frustrated because they&#39;re spending runoffs level money without the runoffs level recognition (which is what I think this is really about).

if you really want to go to the runoffs, go SM. it&#39;s close enough to the IT ruleset (ECU mods and all ), you&#39;ll be spending pretty much the same you are in IT, and you get more recognition than any other class in the country.

[JoshS]

I honestly think you will have many racers moving into this class as a "cheaper" alternative to going to the "big show". People will start to spend money like it is going out of style.

What this means is that it will be harder for those of us on smaller budgets to be somewhat competitive. Now, I dont mean winning races...I&#39;m talking about being midpack or higher. "Somewhat" competitive...

I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it to be even a midpacker...
[/b]

But running Regional races doesn&#39;t get you to the big show. People trying to get to the big show, generally speaking, don&#39;t bring their big-bucks efforts to the place where you are just trying to be somewhat competitive.

I guess I can accept the argument that the price of a used race car for these classes might go up, just because the class will be more popular and so there are more potential buyers. But the price of a new build won&#39;t change one whit.