GCR RUle # 9.1.4 feedback wanted...

[RSTPerformance]

From a couple other posts...

9.1.4. Off-Course Excursions
"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion."

A few of the tracks I race at have "normal lines" that you could argue go outside the "marked course." I, like everyone else at the front, do follow the fast line which may or may not be the argued paved portion of the track outside the marked course.

What marks the course? A white Line, curbs, dragons teath, rumble strips, the edge of the pavement, the supplemental regulations, ...?

My examples:
Lime Rock - Uphill & West bend
NHIS - Turn 3 (Apex) & Turn 11
Watkins Glen - Turn 1
Road Atlanta - Turn 5 (? bottom of "S's")

Food for thought, feel free to add additional tracks/turns to the list of "off course" advantages that we all take lap after lap.

Raymond

[JimLill]

They (re)stated at WGI this past FunOne weekend that excursions around the T1 rumble strips are not legal if used to gain an advantage.

[planet6racing]

But, if you take 5 at Road Atlanta right, you end up on the "other track" and, while you may not be passing someone there, you should have carried more speed which will give you an advantage when you do go to pass someone...

hmm... Interesting question.

[Knestis]

The only time I've ever been black-flagged (Rose Cup Regionals practice session at Portland, ages ago) was because I was driving over the curbs rather than around them. In some cases (old T7) my OUTSIDE tires were on the curb and my INSIDE tires were a car width inside of it.

While it probably goes without saying that there are some corners where the curb, ruts, holes, puddles, etc. make this a bad practice, I thought I was a victim of a Nanny Steward at the time, who patiently told me that he was just looking out for my interests - that it was "unsafe" to leap over curbs in a softly sprung, 55-hp Franco-American commuter car.

I (perhaps foolish in my youth) suggested that, "I thought when I paid my entry fee, I rented the WHOLE track." He wasn't particularly amused. I backed off a little and never heard about it again but the lesson I learned is that there aren't any hard and fast answers to this kind of question - like those "too fast for conditions" citations that highway troopers can give in some states.

K

[dickita15]

Over many years I have seen stewards try to enforce a “white line rule”. The always get tired of it and give up after a weekend or two. It is interesting as I think back on it I do no think any of the stewards taking on this cause ever having raced.

[CaptainWho]

At Road Atlanta, between T3 and T5, strict enforcement of a "white line" rule would add a couple of seconds a lap to IT times.

At Road Atlanta, between T3 and T5, strict enforcement of a "white line" rule would add a couple of seconds a lap to IT times.

Watch James Weaver in the #16 Dyson go through T3 at Road Atlanta some time. I don't know how good the camera work at the Petit or AGP is, but I've worked that corner during IMSA prototype practice and watched the man give driving lessons to every other swinging dick out there. Sometimes he hit those curbs harder in that prototype than a lot of the IT cars I see. OTOH, most of the time, he just "smoothed" his way through. I don't know which is faster for him ... we don't have iCard out at the corners.

But even he uses all of the pavement at track out at T5 ... more than a car width past the rumble strips and the white line.

I'd love to see him and Duncan Daynton go hammer and tongs at Road Atlanta some time in "identical" cars.

[BillH]

At Summit Point there is black asphalt about one car width wide outside the red and white painted curbing at track out of turn 10. The asphalt has small ditches in it at right angles to the direction cars are going. The turn is very fast and leads onto the long straight. It has been the scene of many incidents where drivers went off to the outside trying to get the last bit of speed. The asphalt was put there a few years ago, as I understand it, to "save" cars whose drivers overcook turn 10 and slide past the curbing at trackout. The idea was that the ditches would discourage routine use. But you have to use the black stuff, ditches notwithstanding, unless you want to be really slow on the most important corner on the track. Virtually everyone does, except formula cars and others without sufficient ground clearance to handle the bumps created by the ditches. I have never heard it suggested that using this stuff was illegal, but maybe the cited rule could be read to make it so. That would make for a huge enfrocement hassle. Has anyone else had any experience with the application of this rule to Summit turn 10?

[JamesB]

The extra surface with gatorsteeth was installed in 2001 and even that year it was hit time after time in the national and regional races. Anytime you give more space to a turn drivers will use it. in this case I believe it was needed. Now my car tracks out just to the edge of that, but a few times I have cooked the turns that ride is a lot nicer then some of the rides I have seen IT cars take when they go beyond that.

I still have the picture in my mind at the 12 hour when a miata cooked it and just past that area in track out cought 2-3 feet of air to luckilly land true and continue down the side of the track and reenter safely.

[zracre]

If we were not allowed to use all the paved area on track out at RA...oh 90% of the people would have many seconds added...I think thats where it says paved area. Daytona has the same thing in the horseshoe...track out takes you to a small access road.

[charrbq]

Sorta depends on the SOM's and the track. I've seen a case where a FWD car was putting the outside wheels on the apex of the curb and bouncing over the grass. It kicked up dirt and grass on the track which caused traction problems with other cars. The stewards did nothing and not black flag was issued, but, as per the supps, the driver was sent a bill for damage to the property. I'd rather have a black flag.

I know of at least one very talented IT driver, (not the same one as above) who uses the inside of an apex for his outside wheels on almost every turn. He was threatened to be black flagged by a steward once, but another steward that knows his driving style, intervened. The black flag steward considered him to be out of control. Cooler minds prevailed.

It's tough to do T3 at Atlanta without using the curb. If a SM is near you, he'll either use it to pass you, or run you off into it. I've tried to stay withing the course at T5, but it's slow, slow, slow. I also tried a slightly wider line through it once, but the wall impeeded my speed. T7 can be taken over the berm, but the odds of it being successful are really slim.

When in doubt, check the supps. Either that, or, if there's a driver's meeting, ask the Chief what his ruling is. In place of no clear ruling, they can decided for you.

[spnkzss]

At Summit Point there is black asphalt about one car width wide outside the red and white painted curbing at track out of turn 10. The asphalt has small ditches in it at right angles to the direction cars are going. The turn is very fast and leads onto the long straight. It has been the scene of many incidents where drivers went off to the outside trying to get the last bit of speed. The asphalt was put there a few years ago, as I understand it, to "save" cars whose drivers overcook turn 10 and slide past the curbing at trackout. The idea was that the ditches would discourage routine use. But you have to use the black stuff, ditches notwithstanding, unless you want to be really slow on the most important corner on the track. Virtually everyone does, except formula cars and others without sufficient ground clearance to handle the bumps created by the ditches. I have never heard it suggested that using this stuff was illegal, but maybe the cited rule could be read to make it so. That would make for a huge enfrocement hassle. Has anyone else had any experience with the application of this rule to Summit turn 10?
[/b]

II have never heard anyone complain. If I'm not out there every lap, I'm not going through the turn fast enough. I have passed people out there, but that was because I had no place else to go. I either had to go around or through, so I choice around. I had multiple instances of this last 2 races. My car was down on power which kept me back with the slower cars, but through the corners the car handled great. Catching somone ni turn 10 at a closing rate of 10-20mph is a....... "facinating" experience.

Turn 1 at WGI just asks for the rule to be broken. If you go in deep, make the pass by apex, go off onto the pavement outside the curb on track out, is that illegal? If so, I broke it half a dozen times in one weekend.

[Chris Wire]

Sorta depends on the SOM's and the track. I've seen a case where a FWD car was putting the outside wheels on the apex of the curb and bouncing over the grass.[/b]

2000 ARRC
Road Atlanta T10 a&b

VERY fast ITB Accord did that nearly every lap.

Ironically, I think a broken suspension put him out.

[pgipson]

At PIR (in AZ) we have 2 areas that can cut tenths off a lap if you go wide right. We also have white lines painted on the black stuff that delineate just where "track" ends on "off track" begins in those areas. The rule (and it VERY strictly enforced) is 2 wheels over is OK, 4 is not. Each time a corner workers sees a car shortcutting the course it gets called in. Do it twice in a session and you get a discussion with the steward. 3 times gets you a black flag discussion with a steward.

[DaveITB1]

Racing in the Fun One at WGI last weekend, I saw that "infraction" happen first hand.

While one yellow Volvo was passing me on the pavement on the right, going down the back straight heading for the bus stop, a 2nd Volvo was passing down the grass strip on the left. I watched him put up a rooster tail of grass clippings just as I was passing the White Golf. It happens @2:30 in the video clip.

Based on the discussion, should I have gone to the stewards with this pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OhrCWL3Xc

[Knestis]

I have a sense from the video that the Golf and Volvos were lapping you. If that's the case, it seems like there's a substantial difference between someone short-cutting the course to gain a position and someone taking to the grass to get past a slower race for position, while racing someone themselves, so as not to lose momentum.

K

[kthomas]

T3 at Road Atlanta: If your inside tires never touch the dirt and your outside tires are on the curb is it still legal? That's what we do...

[itracer]

Racing in the Fun One at WGI last weekend, I saw that "infraction" happen first hand.

While one yellow Volvo was passing me on the pavement on the right, going down the back straight heading for the bus stop, a 2nd Volvo was passing down the grass strip on the left. I watched him put up a rooster tail of grass clippings just as I was passing the White Golf. It happens @2:30 in the video clip.

Based on the discussion, should I have gone to the stewards with this pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OhrCWL3Xc
[/b]

Without more evidence, I do not think that your video is enough to prove that he went four off. Video from behind or another witness and maybe you would win a protest.

[DaveITB1]

I disagree. I think "substantial difference" is a bit strong. The "course" (read pavement) was being short-cutted.

While the Red Golf and the 2 Volvos were lapping me, they were in fact gaining position over me (going 1 lap up and finishing 1 lap ahead of me). There have been many times were I have had to get on the binders and lose momentum while racing someone else, because "the door was closed" by a slower car(s) and my line was cut off.

You can see the 2 Volvos approaching in my side mirror. It's quick, but its there. They are staggered in their approach. And as for racing room, the White Golf was on the left side of the track, I was down the center, and there was at least a 1.5 car width space down the right side of the back straight. The 2nd Volvo had to come back off the grass (a more slippery surface) and stabilize the car, causing him to shoot over to the right and giving him a less than ideal angle for the right turn.

As for racing room? It was there. Would passing on the right have made the 2nd volvo have to brake harder for the right hander? I doubt no more than what he had to do passing the way he did. But both the white car and I left racing room. And don't forget, I too was racing, passing the white car.

Does this keep me up at night? Of course not. But going off pavement, whether intentional or not, increases the risk of injury to your car, other's cars, and possibly even our volunteer corner workers....

[itracer]

I have a sense from the video that the Golf and Volvos were lapping you. If that's the case, it seems like there's a substantial difference between someone short-cutting the course to gain a position and someone taking to the grass to get past a slower race for position, while racing someone themselves, so as not to lose momentum.

K
[/b]

I disagree. There is nothing in the rules that makes a lapping car any different from any other racer out there. If the pass is unsafe, it is unsafe – period. If a driver breaks the rule by going off, he/she breaks the rule. If it was to avoid an accident (i.e. if the white golf pinches him off the track because he gets spooked by the train going to his right), then I would rule differently.

[DaveITB1]

Hey Jason,

Point taken. There weren't any others behind us. As I glanced over the hood of the white Golf, 4 were definitely off, but you're right. It's only one guy making the statement.

According to My Laps, Daniel DeBell was driving the #13 Yellow Volvo, and Joel High was in the #14 White Golf. He could probably confirm if 2, 3, or 4 were off.

I didn't mean to make a big deal of this. Just wanted to show what I saw in my race with regards to Raymond's original question.

Dave