ITA and Small Bore Group, Change Needed for 2007

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mike - can I call you Mike?

I think you guys are both on the same page. The bottom line for Greg is that he didn't KNOW you saw him and intended to point him by, even though you did. Hence the importance of the point by.

You wanted to give a point by, he wanted one, you stayed predicable and it all worked out. I was just happy to get to go by on the left!

I was the one who mentioned 'maturity'...we as IT drivers do need to mature as racing gets closer and faster. 3 cars in ITA were significantly under the chicane/chicane track record on Sunday morning...learning a little and getting better at what we do is always an option for everyone, doesn't matter how long you have been doing this.

[alfa]

sure...didn't mean to hide under any sort of anonymity. I forgot that I registered under "alfa" rather than my name. In case anyone is wondering, my name is Mike Lawton.

[Andy Bettencourt]

sure...didn't mean to hide under any sort of anonymity. I forgot that I registered under "alfa" rather than my name. In case anyone is wondering, my name is Mike Lawton. [/b]

Nobody thought that. I think you should change your screen name to "Retna-burning yellow Alfa"...

[16v]

now now, don't go throwing stones at yellow car drivers Mr Bright Orange Wheels

[alfa]

"I think you should change your screen name to "Retna-burning yellow Alfa"... "

I used to forget where I parked my car in the paddock. No more! You should try it.

Statistically, yellow cars have less accidents, too. At least that's what my aunt told me when I was looking for my first street car a few(?) years ago. She even claimed that they get an insurance break.

We have a yellow Mini too, but I prefer the Alfa color. It's actually the Ferrari "Giallo Modena" paint code. Everyone who has an Alfa wishes they had a Ferrari. The paint was all I could afford.

[Andy Bettencourt]

now now, don't go throwing stones at yellow car drivers Mr Bright Orange Wheels [/b]

Show me proof!

[16v]

Show me proof!
[/b]

[RSTPerformance]

I don't get internet access often but I happened to read through this post this evening. I think that one thing that is very difficult is to be able to predict the line of the drivers that are driving at a much different pace than you are. For example in this video if I was Greg than I would have done the exact same thing he did and I actually would have been frustrated with Mike and feeling as though he felt like he owned the track and everyone else had to wait for him. I would have felt like he had no clue I was clsing in on him. If I was closing at that speed on him I would not have expected any point by at any point for the following reasons:

A: The point buy should have come at the exit of 6 before the tree in 7 because of the closing rate of speed. A point by 2 seconds before you are going to pass is NOT sufficient. If at all possible you should do it in the turn or before the turn so the overtaking driver can plan their exit line and speed out of the turn. If your in the heat of battle you certainly don't want to lift on an uphill straightaway to wait to see if your going to get a point by.

B: the Yellow Alfa left TONS of room to the Right of him at the exit of 6 and heading towards 7. TOTALLY OFF gregs normal racing line (And My line) As the overtaking car I would think that he was moving over to give me room since I really do think that that is not the fast line and more of a get out of the way line. The line the alfa took was totally unpredictable in my mind as his exit and entrance to 7 was off line leaving the racing line on his right wide open.

C: Greg was completly caught up to him directly behind him and going much fast and still no point by. A point by like you said should be where it is safe... ANY PART of the track is safe to pass on if you are both comunicating to each other. I have been around NHIS (the entire track) side by side with no contact. The point by should have come as he approached. Don't expect him to lift and wait a few seconds for you to decide that the end of the straight is a safer place to pass. Tell him in advance that your going to leave the left line open.


If you had intended the point by to be on the left and had givin him that point by AS HE APPROACHED you not when or even after he actually caught you I think he would have waited until he had room and goen to the left. If you had pointed him to the left coming out of six I personally think he would not have gone through the grass on the right and instead he would have waited for room on the left. THAT would have been a safe point by.

I think that this is the biggest misconception as backmarkers are lapped. A point by should be given as EARLY as possible and then once that point by is given you can't change your mind. So what if it is 3 turns later. Give them the plan you have so they can make there plan as the overtaker. I can't stress this enough a GOOD POINT BY is given AS the overtaking car approaches not after they catch up and wait for the point by.

I had the chance to meet you Mike and I love your car it is awesome. So please don't take offense to my comments I am just analyzing it from a different point of view. I want you to learn why and how I would have decided to do the same thing greg did. We all have our own expirences and we all have different rational for our decisions which brings up another point on why we have contact... my analization here may be completly different from someone elses... the lack of experience with eachother is a huge part of the contact in IT. afterall how many new people did you race with this year?

Just a different perspective on the video,
Stephen

One other note... Greg in my mind tried to comunicate with you by staying at least 1/2 to 3/4 car width over to your right as he followed you up the hill. In my mind that means he expects you to let him through on that side. To expect a car all they way on your right to move all the way to the left AFTER they caught you would have been interesting going ino 9!

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

I have stayed out of this discussion for many reasons, however I will say FROM A DRIVERS standpoint I couldn't agree with Stephen and Greg more, however from my training as an SIT I will say that I have learned a lot, and many things that ALL of us do are not exactly "per GCR" and many of us have been penalized. Lets all remember to have healthy discussions with each other before/after practice/qualifying sessions as we get to know each other I think we can play well together. Certainly always feel free to file a protest, but don't be suprised if many of these issues will raise eyebrows for both drivers. I think that in every video I have sceen of friends, as an SIT, as well as mine show that multiple people could have learned something or avoided an incident.

Mark- love the car, and you seem very nice as well, I as with Stephen DO NOT have any issues with what you did. I just agree from a drivers perspective that you also could have been a bit more proactive!!! If you pointed left at the exit of turn 6 I am sure Greg would have gone left (I know I would have), and thus he probably would have been on your left (or going toward your left) at the crest of the hill, but the pass probably wouldn't have been untill the enterance of turn 9. At anyrate while I do think you could have helped a bit more you are also right and if Gregs move had caused an incident and a protest was filed he may have left the media room an unhappy person (From my SIT experience).

I have and will again be a backmarker, be it car problems, or running with faster cars, so I know what it is like to be lapped at a very high rate of speed. I have also been in the heat of a battle (for first in class) when leaders of another class come through also in the heat of a battle, and as Stephen mentioned thier is not anyplace on any track where you can not race side by side.

On the other side of the fence I have also witnessed my dad pushed of the track from faster GT1 cars who feel that they own the track... can you say Paul Newman or Amy Ruel... probably 2 of the worst offenders of "owning a track." So it happens in all the race groupes, not just IT.

ok I am talking to much, but I have to get it all out!!! If you look at Gregs video from Cheap Date this past weekend when him and Richie had contact you can see that Greg gave a point by way in advance long before the braking zone and/or the turn. He then left plenty of room. things didn't work out, but we wont get into that. The important part is that he made a distinct point by well in advance.

The most important lesson that isn't taught or stressed enough IMO is the timing of a point by. Point bys need to be in advance further than one might think. I feel that if you have someone you think will pass at the exit of a turn you should point them bye before the braking zone, look for the dive bomb, then again at the exit of the turn do the point again to ensure that they saw the point by and be sure to hold space for them even if that means you go a bit off line (a good example would be the exit of turn 6/apex of turn 7 at NHIS). If the person still doesn't pass then I do think it is safe to start over and possibly point them by on the right. if that makes sence.

good luck to all;

Raymond "I should have stayed out of this!!!" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why are we talking about point-bys? The GCR says nothing about them. I was recently told by someone that he was "under no obligation to give me a point-by".

While I agree it's the gentlemanly and safe thing to do for all racers, some drivers could give a crap about them...so let's stop talking about them like we should be expecting them. As soon as we expect something that doesn't come, bad things happen.

[RSTPerformance]

Why are we talking about point-bys? The GCR says nothing about them. I was recently told by someone that he was "under no obligation to give me a point-by".

While I agree it's the gentlemanly and safe thing to do for all racers, some drivers could give a crap about them...so let's stop talking about them like we should be expecting them. As soon as we expect something that doesn't come, bad things happen.
[/b]

ANDY you need to reread my post ASAP. Then post a comment.


My post is all about the fact THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE EXPECTED A POINT BY in this situation. Then to be helpfull to Mike I explained why and what I think the difference it between a good point by and a bad point by. No matter if your getting a point by or not you need to be able to communicate with the other drivers around you by predicting what they are going to do. Experience with eachother helps this, point bys help this, and even the gesture of Greg staying off to the right is a form of comunication and prediction that he is going to try and pass on the right.

I do think it is relevent to this topic and to the 2 groups running together since this video clip is form the same race.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Stephen,

I read all the posts. My point is that if the GCR says nothing about them, and some drivers don't use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?

...and I didn't mention any names in my post for a reason...and there is a big difference between bashing and bumping. Please don't use that term about me in our incident. This is a learning experience for all.

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

"As a driver" everything isn't always about the GCR, sometimes its just simple communication and understandings among fellow drivers that makes things fun...

Raymond

Stephen,

I read all the posts. My point is that if the GCR says nothing about them, and some drivers don't use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?

...and I didn't mention any names in my post for a reason...and there is a big difference between bashing and bumping. Please don't use that term about me in our incident. This is a learning experience for all.
[/b]

2nd part is fixed.

as for your first part in not talking about point bys....
WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THEM. this discussion is on why prod and IT should be seperated or left alone to share the track... In this video we see 2 completly different view points of an overtaking situation. This was a situation when contact could have happened. The prod driver was going to give a point by and the IT driver wasn't expecting one. If different people have different opinions or signals to help eachother RACE TOGETHER on the track then we should discuss them so we can all RACE TOGETHER and understand eachother.
I have to go to work but when I get back I will read your reply and I will try to understand what this thread is actually about since it msut not be about sharing the track and racing as a group without contact.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

I take it all back. I need to become more intimate with my GCR. Point-by's ARE required.

<span style="color:#231f20"><div align="left">9.1.3. Hand Signals</div>
</span>competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion.</div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>

Also understand I am being slightly arguementative here to bring out all 2 million viewpoints.

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

Good catch, thanks for posting...

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

...(even) if the GCR says nothing about (point-bys), and some drivers don&#39;t use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?[/b]

...point-bys in competition are one of the tools that you have at your disposal (others include "body language" and driving lines) to minimize the potential of the conflicts.[/b]

[alfa]

"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion."

Yeah...and for anyone who has been at the Glen recently, how many passes are made on (or even to the left of) the white berm coming out of turn one???

I watched a little of the Spec Miata race and you would have thought that the track ran outside the white berm, not inside it.