ITA and Small Bore Group, Change Needed for 2007

[ulfelder]

Let's remember to seperate INTENTIONAL contact for the purpose of moving up the results sheet with INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons.

NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.
[/b]

Andy, maybe I need to get even more specific. Everyone agrees that intentionally spinning out your competitor is dirty. In this thread, I am talking about intentionally hitting another driver's rear bumper on a straightaway, when there is almost zero chance of causing that car to spin. Fair enough?

I'm looking for folks to tell me when and why they do this. So far, only Jake has done so, and he explained his reasoning well.

Also, when you write INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons, it seems to me you are conflating two things. Incidental is not the same thing as accidental. I've declared that we're not talking about accidental contact. Do you believe incidental contact is OK? If so, can you explain what you mean by incidental?

I believe there are 3 reasons drivers do this.

1. Speed preservation. This is at least defensible, although it raises the question, "Preserve your speed for what? For the next corner, where you'll need to slow down for the car ahead of you again?"

2. Frustration.

3. An attempt to intimidate the driver ahead, or, if you prefer a less loaded term, to send a message: I am faster than you in the corners and I want you out of my way.

Steve

[Tkczecheredflag]

On a lighter note - Has anyone considered combining SSM, SM, and ITA, call it "Spec/IT Cowboy" and let us "thin the herd" in the wild west??????

I continue to have my share of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. No mechanical failures but plenty of body work this year. Would like to say it's been my fault but I can't. Now I have the "make it pretty by next annual tech" note in my log book. I told Scott that the body work were "badges of honor", not dents - he didn't buy it.

If we do not use some control and restraint on metal to metal, we run the risk of F&C taking a more active roll in "playing police" during the sessions. Is that what we are looking for????

[JLawton]

In this thread, I am talking about intentionally hitting another driver's rear bumper on a straightaway,

Welllllll, as we were lining up on the track behind the pace car, I did roll up and tape Hunter at about 2 mph!! It got his attention. (you should have seen his head snap up to look in the mirror. I wish I had it on video!!) It took him out of his game and I got by him on the start!! Does that count??

On a lighter note - Has anyone considered combining SSM, SM, and ITA, call it "Spec/IT Cowboy" and let us "thin the herd" in the wild west??????

[/b]

Tim, you certainly get the hard luck award!! Although...........I don't recall seeing anyone around you when you went off in 6!!

[7racing]

In no way am I saying bumper tapping is OK. I don't hink anyone on this topic or the other have said it's OK. I wasn't even saying that ITA isn't aggressive. Remember, I was taken out at the start of a race with heavy damage, due to aggressive driving this year.

What I am saying is, I think Dave is trying to make his point about the "incident" yesterday by starting a topic about over-aggressive ITA drivers. And we all know there is much more to this story than a few bumper taps........

[/b]

Not sure what side of the fence I am on in regards to splitting the groups, but I do see a lot of posts saying that no one thinks nose to tail contact is acceptable. It reminds me of this post from a few weeks ago: http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=8585

In no way am I trying to single out the owner of the video and I'm not trying to prove anything. But in this thread we are defending IT drivers as a respectable bunch that don't necessarily like to contact each other, but in the other thread we are all gloating like schoolchildren about the first lap video (including a comment by someone saying "Great bumber drafting").

So what side are we all on?

I do not necessarily think that a "bump draft" and/or nose to tail contact is unacceptable (within IT/SS/SM type cars). It is also not something I do all the time. In SM, I got a run down the front straight at NHIS on two other SM that were side by side. I found the faster of the two (and the driver I knew) and kept my foot planted. I hit him as I didn't want to lift and slow down, and also to help push him past the other car for both of us. Just my example and there are plenty of examples from everyone with similar results. Some people will lift to avoid it, others try to keep their momentum going and don't lift.

Jeremy

[MMiskoe]

I'm looking for folks to tell me when and why they do this. So far, only Jake has done so, and he explained his reasoning well[/b]

Steve:

I figured I better answer considering I pushed you from 6 to 9 once. Why? I didn't realize we were in contact since I never felt a bump. Would I have lifted? Probably not since as others have said, at very low realtive speeds the threat of damage is very small. If I had thought it would cause problems more than a scratch on the bumper, then yes. So far, and I hope it stays this way, I don't beleive I have ever made contact w/ someone that caused them to lose position.

I've been hit in the rear before - I missed a shift and figured "yep I deserve that", another time on a long straight and after the surprise went away I thought "great, push harder so I can pass this guy".

Twice I have done it to others - once in tech line, does that count? The other time was when I thought the person was trying to let me by but we were under caution and I knew the guy pretty well considering it was my father driving.

I did hear an intersting comment in the ITS/ITB impound this weekend. A guy in a borrowed car said "man you guys really race to the edge, if there isn't room, you make room" I think he said his past experience was in sports 2000's. I didn't get to ask if he was offended or simply surprised. I would say that it was an indication of the fact that IT does seem to race closer than some other classes and that leads to more potential contact. If people are not comfortable with this, they need to speak up as Dave has done.

Matt

[Greg Amy]

It reminds me of this post from a few weeks ago...[/b]

(...as everyone listened to the chirping of the crickets...)

I've been reading this thread but intentionally staying out of it. To be honest, I think this video is most certainly worth watching and discussing; I consider it worthy of a case study of the topic at hand. Feel free to discuss and debate without any hard feelings from me. Honestly.

I have some thoughts on this video and its relation to this topic, but I wish to refrain in order to not cloud other peoples' thoughts. I'll have more to say later.

Discuss.

Do I get royalties...?

[lateapex911]

Well, Greg, since you brought it up.....

One of the issues here IS mindset, and mindset DOES stem from background. Imagine a guy who has some bucks, and has graduated from the PCA driver ed program. He buys a top notch IT car, and qualifies it well. Gulp...at the first turn, he's eyes are pretty wide!!

We are hearing comments from GT drivers and S2000 drivers, and both are commenting on the closeness that has led to contact. For them, it's not good.

But we've also been led to a video (which Jeremy points out we 'approved of") that shows some definate contact by Greg Amy at the Glen.

I'd submit that it's a case of background here as well. Some of you know that Greg cut his teeth in SS back in the 90s, and aggressive bump drafting was the norm...the modus operandi. Thats his background, it was expected of him then, and he carries it to this day. He's probably saying, "What are these guys talking about??"...just a little bump.

I'm sure we all think our take on it is the best. Honestly, I wouldn't have done the bump on the backstraight that Greg did. I didn't know the guy, and it was stout. (heck, with my measly power I couldn't) !And yes, it's against the rules. I think even Greg might think about it more now, maybe not.

But the points here are good ones....playing nice means understanding what "Playing nice" means to the other guy.


There are flipsides to it as well. I was tagged going into 6 at NHIS by a fellow RX7, and it took some quick steering to maintain speed and get back to the apex....but it was fun. At the time I rolled my eyes and thought, "Nice move there John Doe". Later I heard the Stewards called him up and slapped his knuckles for it. hee hee...physcological advantage: me...I can now be pretty firm with closing the door on him when I'm fairly ahead, because I know he's not going to want to repeat it.

What goes around comes around.

[ulfelder]

Sheesh, Matt, I wish you hadn't apologized - I fear everyone's now viewing me as a pansy who can't take a little rubbin'. Not true, and if you don't believe me ask Ben Phillips, Mike Carr, Wes Saunders, Mark Gregory, Tim Estes, Dave Maynard, or any of the other drivers I've raced close and hard over the past several seasons. I've left a little green paint on all those guys - but I've never rammed any of them in the bumper on purpose, even when I had a run on them.

My position is clear (and so I'll shut up now): I think bumper-tag as defined (intentional, a conscious choice to hit rather than lift) has no place in Club Racing. I've invited others to explain their views, and several guys have done so. And many of their arguments I find reasonable, if not entirely persuasive.

Steve

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim, you certainly get the hard luck award!! Although...........I don't recall seeing anyone around you when you went off in 6!!
[/b]

Jeff - No, please let ME pass the salt.

[Jake]

I think we need a poll or something about bumpdrafting. Here's my take: I would have NO problem with anyone doing it to me. I often have wanted to do it to preserve momentum - but have NEVER done it because I couldn't be sure that the bumpee would be ok with it.

[Knestis]

It's my culture, too but I'm WAY more OK with nose-to-tail snubbing than with side-to-side rubbing. The latter makes our cars uglier which I think is an issue.

The first car I ever bumped bumpers with was driven by a guy whose line was so gawdawful, I was catching him accelerating off of the apex with a lower-power car. I pushed him out of the corner a few times before he got all twitchy and threw it away turning in evern EARLIER.

My second hitting session was with the same guy in the next race we ran. I went to the dude who owned the car and asked if they were having problems with the engine or gearbox or something, since I was getting into him in a very unexpected place. He smiled but Driver X was always PO'd about it. He went on to do Grand Am, among other things...

That was about it for "Racing Career I."

Since I got back into it 3 seasons ago, I have absolutely noticed that there's more "let's get physical" out there. I've been hit in the back bumper hard enough to damage the cover twice - both times by BMWs, once under FCY, and the other before the checker. The second one speared me with his 6" tow hook. Riiight - no explanation necessary there, Dumbasses.

I've been pushed out of corners myself but only by faster cars that I somehow ended up in front of in qualifying or start messiness. No harm, no foul and I got a better run as a result, methinks.

I had a wild-eyed loonie clout me in the backside UNDER BRAKING - that's a cheap shot in my book - several times, before he clobered a stationary SRF and sent the poor guy to the hospital. I recorded that one for posterity and the stewards, when they asked me to help encourage him to go play somewhere else. A Special Case.

I boinked the CRX that I was racing at VIR this year, when I finally FOUND his damn rear bumper. Boy, those cars are short. Problem was, all it did was give him some of my energy so he could get away from me on the run up through the Esses. Lesson learned there.

I pushed Giles up the straight out of Oak Tree once last season, just because I could. He didn't kick my ass, even though he could.

Bowie clouted the new Golf in the back bumper 2 laps from the end of the CMP ECR this spring, just because HE could. I'd just lifted to upshift so the hit was a little harder than I expected but still, no problemo.

Finally, I poked my RF into the LR of a badly-driven Miata in the tiny chute into the Carousel at the Summit 12, right at the end of the night. I was PO'd at the whole species, took it out on one lost guy, and admitted publicly that I felt bad about it afterward.

That's it - one case study in bumpage. What's to be learned? That correctness is influenced by context.

** If someone hits me because they aren't completely in control, they are a dumbass.

** If someone hits me in a place where it's likely to cause ME to not be in control, they are just an ass.

** If someone hits me in the bumper, with little enough closing speed that there's no damage, AND at a place on the track that doesn't upset the car, then I'm OK with it. I might even benefit, if the timing is right.

** All of the same rules apply if I am the hitter.

K

[Eagle7]

** If someone hits me in the bumper, with little enough closing speed that there's no damage, AND at a place on the track that doesn't upset the car, then I'm OK with it. I might even benefit, if the timing is right.

** All of the same rules apply if I am the hitter.
[/b]

OK, here's what I don't get. As a self-proclaimed rules nerd, why are the on-track rules less important to you than the car prep rules? You wouldn't do it unless you thought it was a competitive advantage. So now I've got to do it just to keep up? So the whole grid starts bump drafting wherever they can, and we end up with more torn-up cars.

[gran racing]

I’ve been giving the whole “bumping” some thought over the past several months. I know in the GCR it states no contact is allowed, but what is really acceptable? (This is coming from a guy whose wife got pulled over in Oregon a couple of weeks ago, was told he wasn’t going to give us a ticket, and I ask the officer “so what is the tolerance for speeding around here?” My wife didn’t seem to like that question.) I’m a bit torn about the whole thing.

Thinking back to one of my first races…I just finished all of the hard work on my car and it had a fresh paint job. I see a quicker car coming up from behind me, stay on the line and point him by to the right. Nope, instead he decides to give me a pretty big bump on the rear which was totally avoidable and in actuality cost him some time. I have to say that really pissed me off, especially from the mindset of a novice. Maybe the driver was just trying to intimidate me? At that point in my career, it worked. Now? Absolutely not. I guess road rage carries over to the track, not that I’m saying it’s right. Basically, I’ll race you as you race me.

Going down to GA for the ARRC last year, I began to wonder a bit more about bump drafting. Funny enough, a show aired that went into depth about the effects of bump drafting and showed the advantages both drivers can gain. It also discussed the dangers of bump drafting. It was NASCAR based, but that really didn’t matter much. I then started thinking about that long straight at Road Atlanta and if guys in front of me are doing it, I almost “need” to in order to keep up. I decided not to take part in the bump drafting exercise.

As many others have said, I’d give a friend a little bump out on the track only on a straight and nothing too hard. This thread has me thinking more about this though. My friend and I are cool with this and just having fun. If we’re bump drafting, we’re even working together to reduce our lap times. (That was an excellent point about this being used as an illegal advantage.) What we, myself included, need to remember is what is going on outside our little friendly bubble. Others are watching, be it fellow racers, stewards, fans, and prospective racers. People close to things realize that Dave might be bumping Jake, but they’re actually good friends. Really, it’s no big deal, right?

Greg, since you’re cool with this being discussed, I’ll admit you’re video et al has me doing some thinking. There were a few times I personally wouldn’t have done the bumping. Especially after hearing all the positive talk about the lap, I couldn’t help but wonder if I’m not being aggressive enough. I don’t think this is the case, but does have me wondering a bit.

[benspeed]

One of the best things about IT racing is that it's about as competetitive racing you can get at the amatuer level. That's why I chose ITS when I started six seasons ago. I've had many bumps over the years (I could put a long list of names - heck, Greg Amy and I swapped paint in ITS about three years ago at NHIS. Not sure how many times I tapped Steve U but I did have green paint on my car a few times) I can say that I have never bumped anybody to gain advantage, but I have bumped some folks to let them know I was there and I will admit that was lacking in judgement. They KNOW you're there and don't need to be told. Work harder to get around them clean.

The best bump drafting was with Jeff Harding at Pocono this year. He and I were in a very tight battle for third and he gave me bumps down the back straight three laps in a row and gave me a HUGE bump draft on the front straight that pushed my car up over 145 - maybe 150 mph. I made sure I adjusted my brake point after that one. (The starter made major black flag pointing motions at both of us after that and we stopped.) Nice thing was by working together we were running down the 2nd place car noticeably.

The difference here was that I waived to Jeff to bump me (I think he thought I was providing a not so friendly gesture at first, but then came up and gave a solid boost for both our speed.) Never did I feel unsafe as we were both on the straights and we both know and respect our driving and know each others cars. However, if either of us lost control and were hurt - that would make either of us feel like major assholes. After thinking about that race (and the bastard beat me at the line for third!) I figured I'd not do the bump drafting again. We are not pro racing and the risks are high when making contact over 100 mph.

I don't think anybody in ITS would consider me a "gentle driver". I think in my second year they named me Banzai Ben for bombing in on guys at turn three at NHIS - I wasn't too sure I liked that moniker so I started giving some room and guess what? It never hurt my finishing position. I just drove a little smarter (not all might agree ) and picked where/how to pass more carefully.

I also think as a leader of a race you must give respect to the lap cars. They must do the same but ya know? These guys are driving as hard as you and might not see you, have as much experience and might be locked in a major battle for 15th. Cut some slack to these guys! Protect your line and pick the right spot to pass - don't chrome horn the guy out of the way - that just sucks. I thought the person who made the comment about Earnhardt Sr. (my favorite Nascar star still) was dead on. You are not a quality driver putting the bumper to somebody for the position - you're just greedy for the spot. Anybody see JR hammer Edwards out of the way a couple weeks ago? Low brow stuff and the fans booed his ass good.

We piss away way to much $$ to be beating our cars up the way we do. Heck - one of the reasons I went SPO is so I can drive a tank for safety

[Butch Kummer]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but be advised that the first car to take the checker in the Spec Miata race at Nashville a couple of weeks ago was disqualified for (repeatedly) bump-drafting. Granted you can see the entire track from the control tower at Nashville so EVERYONE was witness to his actions and the stewards didn't need to deliberate very long. The GCR says no contact and SEDIV has been pretty adamant about enforcing that this year.

Not saying you can't bump-draft if you want to, but many/most of those same stewards will be working the ARRC.

Butch Kummer
ARRC Chairman

[lateapex911]

I seem to remember that call being made in ARRCs gone by, in ITB, I think.

[zchris]

Well I will also take a crack at this topic. I run both GT2 and Spec Miata. In SM there is clearly a large number of guys driving way over there head and hitting several cars per event. When you have usable bumpers you are less likely to take care to develop good close proximity driving skills. Not true in any of the GT classes where bumpers are for apperance only. This is a battle we have in GT nationals with the AS class that are run with us. Lets see, a 3200lb lead sled against my 2000lb Fiberglass replica. Only an idiot would class these together. Not all that different than the situation that exists with ITA and GTL. Again large wieght disparity and steel bumpers vs Fiberglass. Again only an idiot or someone that has no clue about race cars would put these classes together. And to anyone about to jump on me for saying this, my 10 year old could figure this out. What would do more than anything would be to require all IT cars to run without the steel or Aluminum reinforcement bars. I gaurantee the IT drivers would learn how to stop hitting each other quickly. This will never happen as the IT guys will never stop using each other as berms to get through the corners on another stupid late braking manuever. The IT races are almost always the most entertaining to watch for those really dumb moves that destroy cars. Alot of you guys think its cool and boy does that guy have guts for that risky move. This is just a game we adults play. No one is paying us for this game we play. When Charlie makes a stupid move and causes a 5 car chain reaction, he is only causing financial hardship for others. I mean its great entertainment for me, but I think there are to many guys each weekend that have to go home and explain to there wives why they can only put 50 bucks into juniors college fund this month. Well I'll get off my soapbox now.
Chris Howard

[mlytle]

i am in the "no tolerance" camp. metal to metal ain't cool, no matter what end or side of the car it is. this is not pro racing. there should be ZERO intentional contact between cars.

i'll extend this to a comment that there should be no "threats of contact" either. by that i mean intimidating your way into a position by taking advantage of someone else's contact avoidance move. i'll refer to "the video". in repeated cases, the driver makes little jinking moves left or right...and keeps doing it until the cars around him move over enough to give him a hole. only way that hole is created is from the other drivers moving over a little to avoid getting hit on the side. good driving didn't get the driver ahead, threats of side to side contact against others and slamming into bumpers did. poor sportsmanship, not acceptable.

[biovic]

Aside from unintentional bumps from cars in front braking too hard, mis-shifting, or missing acceleration at the apex, I've done it a couple times and had it happen to me a few times (generally in slower corners), I say NO bumping on purpose (and we should TRY hard NOT to bump), and NO bump drafting. I've never bump drafted, and I can't remember anyone ever doing that to me. On straights I always stay a few inches from the rear bumper of the car ahead, even if i know I can go faster (but know I don't have enough to make a pass). Accelerating through corners, especially Turn 3 at NHIS, I know it's hard sometimes for us to lift. I typically get better runs than say Brandon Bogart ;-) (but never hit him, always lift a little). Yes, it's very frustrating, but in my view, no metal contact also involves the plastic bumpers.


Victor
back in 07 with another ITA Integra

and yes, my back is feeling very god, thanks.

[Knestis]

OK, here's what I don't get. As a self-proclaimed rules nerd, why are the on-track rules less important to you than the car prep rules? ...
[/b]

See? You should have come to my NERD retirement party. All the cool people were there, and we had one of those bouncy castles - and a pony ride.

K