ITA and Small Bore Group, Change Needed for 2007

[Eagle7]

See? You should have come to my NERD retirement party. All the cool people were there, and we had one of those bouncy castles - and a pony ride.

K
[/b]

Yeah, I was thinking about your retirement party when I wrote it, but IIRC you were also describing your pre-retirement perspective.

I don't remember getting the invite for the party, so I guess I'm just not cool. Darn, I like ponies, too. But you guys did keep me up most of the night with all the racket you were making. :P

[Chipper1]

In 6 years in ITA I have never bumped either on purpose or by mistake. I think incidental bumping is often avoidable if the individual is willing to give up the competitive advantage gained from maintaining zero margin for error.

I've been bumped a few times and each time in discussions with the bump-er there was no harm intended. But I think to the uninitiated the message it sends is "get out of my way" and that the faster car shouldn't even be bothered to make an effort to pass.

What troubles me the most is the difference between what the GCR says and the reality of IT/SM/SS racing. Like other areas of compliance, the CRB needs to either crack down on the behavior or change the rules.

BTW when Greg hit me at WGI the first time was largely because I hit my rev limiter coming out of 1 and when going into the bus stop there was an accordion effect up front caused by the number of ITB and fast wet qualifiers going abnormally slow.

Chip VanSlyke
94 ITA Integra, slightly bent

[Andy Bettencourt]

What troubles me the most is the difference between what the GCR says and the reality of IT/SM/SS racing. Like other areas of compliance, the CRB needs to either crack down on the behavior or change the rules. [/b]

Like illegal cars, this is where we have to police ourselves. Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded. Seems like the system worked per the GCR in that respect, no? This is Club Racing and we will probably never have the Sanctioning body hand down penalties in a proactive fashion like SWC or GAC - and that is the way it should be because we don't have the advantage of multiple camera angles to place appropriate blame.

[RKramden]

Here is a view from "outside" on the reputations drivers have.

Like illegal cars, this is where we have to police ourselves. Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded. Seems like the system worked per the GCR in that respect, no? This is Club Racing and we will probably never have the Sanctioning body hand down penalties in a proactive fashion like SWC or GAC - and that is the way it should be because we don't have the advantage of multiple camera angles to place appropriate blame.
[/b]

Sometimes historical perspective is a wonderful thing.

15 years ago, the Rabbit (ne Golf) Cup drivers had a reputation for viewing racing as a contact sport. It was deserved. A rule of a $500 no fault per contact fine put a very fast end to that. (And back then, that was 2 sets of tires!)

For a number of years, the Spec Racers in the Northeast had that reputation as well. Racing for them was a contact sport. The prod guys who ran with SR bitched back them, too. It still is today to some extent, but much less than when it was Sports Renault.

Today, the IT guys (and gals) must all own body shops. Or so it seems based on the amount of bent up cars. One of the things that tech did this last weekend was to write up everyone in impound for the "no body damage / neat and clean" rule because the IT cars had started to look like a demo derby class. The chief steward felt it nessesary to comment about the amount of metal to metal in the mandatory drivers meeting for the IT cars.

(And, SM/SSM is quickly gaining the same reputation, BTW.)

So, what does one do?

Well, (IIRC) without a rule change, the Chief Steward could fine each party involved in any Metal to Metal $100 per hit. "Unsportsmanlike conduct, here is your fine, protest my action if you don't agree."

Also, maybe the PCA/BMW, etc. 13/13 rule has a place in cleaning up the contact.


Opinion:

I don't go to races to watch people crash. I rather see a contact free but very close race. Formula Vee at the Runoffs has just that reputation. Half a dozen good drivers in the front pack swaping positions multiple times on every lap.

On a much higher level, it may be that more and more of the drivers in IT/SM lack the respect for each other that there has traditionally been in SCCA racing. Certainly not true for everyone, but there sure seems like less than there used to be. (Of course, those who read and post here are NOT the ones I refer to. :P )

With that change in attitude, the "old time racers" like Dave and Andy are not going to see it get cleaned up by driver action.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's not a coincidence that all the classes with a part or present reputation for contact have rediculously close racing. It's not uncommon for 2 or 3 IT classes to be 'the best race of the weekend'. SRF drivers have LEARNED how to race at 10/10th's for a 20 lap race, on each others bumpers without a ton of contact.

The issue here is that the IT fields are bigger than ever (ITA has been the largest class all year), the competition is VERY close at the front and, unlike any of the other very large classes - we encounter lapped traffic inside the first 4-5 laps. SRF's run within 5 seconds of each other from front to rear while the IT classes can have as much as a 10 second spread.

The point? IT drivers have to evolve. The historical reference above shows that drivers have to evolve, plain and simple. When the racing gets tight, the cars are equal and the track is full, we enter another learning curve for the drivers.

And let's not put this 100% on the faster guys. A point-by when you are getting lapped or having trouble makes it safer for everyone. If we all understand each others intentions, we can proactively avoid contact.

[dazzlesa]

i beleive that the less contact the better.has anyone watched the runoffs? talk about lack of respect in virtually every class. i think the lappers have to be aware of the faster cars coming up on them. i can not count how many times i was not sure witch way a car was going to go as i entered a corner.

[mowog]

SCCA must run different classes together, so maybe part of the issue is how do we get everyone to co-exist in a safe and sane way? I've raced Prod and GT cars for over 20 years, and I've seen some rather bizare groupings. Some actually worked out well! Why? Because drivers RESPECTED eachother, and took the time and effort to understand and work with the differences in the classes. Is it sane and safe for small bore to run with big bore? NO, as a small bore drive I'm much prefer to run with IT, SM, SRF, or just about anyone else. But then I race a car with a minimum weight of 1460# and the height of a step stool. I do feel a bit intimidated when I'm eye level with another car's lug nuts. However I have run with them, especially on practice days, and it can work IF there's mutual respect. The Prod/GT drivers are asking for respect from the IT drivers, and can't take physical contact without costly damage. Do the Prod/GT drivers give enough respect to the close racing in the IT ranks too? My rule: if you don't have anyone in front of you that you can catch, and no one is behind you, GET THE HELL OUT OF SOMEONE ELSE'S RACE. If you, and everyone around you are truely racing for positions, then learn where each has and advantage and disadvantage, and work together. In other words, let the car that corners faster go by into the turn. And the slower car needs to learn the best place to let the faster car thru out of a turn onto the straight, then draft. Everyone will go faster, everyone will have fun, and no damage needs to be done to anyone's car. OK, lecture over.

[RKramden]

i beleive that the less contact the better.has anyone watched the runoffs? talk about lack of respect in virtually every class.[/b]

And for the last 20+ years, one of the best races at the Runoffs has been Formula Vee, with what might be argued as some of the closest racing year after year (hey, each and every car has just about the same HP), the most position changes in the top 6 cars, and the least contact.

NASCAR Modifieds: Not much contact, either, but gobs of horsepower. Quicker then the Cup cars, unless they have restrictor plates. (Like at NHIS) Any New England types want to head to Stafford to watch them at the end of the month?

Close racing, anywhere in the pack, should not require contact. Formula cars have a much higher penalty for contact, so drivers avoid it. BMW, PCA, et al have a much higher penalty (13/13), so those drivers avoid it as well. Pro races have get a fine ($$$) to discourage them.

One of the differences I see between the "Old Club" and the "New Club" is that the Old way was people brought their own cars to the track. There were almost no rentals, except in SS. (and SS had a lot more contact as well.) Cars that the driver would spend lots of time and effort on getting it ready to race. Production and GT are still like this, as is Formula car racing. When I was watching Skip Barber races, it seems they had more contact than SCCA racing, but the field is nothing but rentals.

ITA, SM, and SRF have changing levels where drivers simply rent a ride. Show up and drive, and they don't have to change the tires or put in the gas. It's not their car, they are not going to be pounding sheet metal flat (or patching fiberglass), so maybe they are willing to make moves that are risky, or with a much lower chance of being completed without contact. And maybe toss in some lack of patience as well. They paid their bucks, they want to show up, race, and go home. And that is it. Most of the drivers, fast and slow, still own their own cars, and it seems that those are the ones who, in general, have the least contact. Of course, sometimes you are simply in the wrong place and get collected, like Grant McStay was a few years ago.

I think that the contact will continue until the system has something in place that makes it painful (via some sort of penalty), but I don't think that a simple fine will do it, and they are inherently unfair. It might help, but it isn't the only answer.

As a related note, it also seems that, in general, the drivers who work on their own cars volunteer to help the club in other ways more often. Helping at Tech, Flagging when they have the chance, going to board meetings, or even being Comp Board Chair. Brian Mushnick deserves a big thank you from all the drivers in every class for what he has done for the club in the last three years. I think it is the hardest job there is in the region, and he has been very good at it.

[lateapex911]

Interesting points about working on your own car and helping out more....are there statistics on that or is it just an observation? (Not doubting it, actuallly, I agreee with it now that you've brought it up...just curious)

I'll second the Mushnick kudos. Lots of us try to give back, either via the region, or via National service, but Brians job is a big undertaking. I'd like to add that he's had some good assistance from his great wife Kristine, and when he first got stared, his unofficial "assistant", who probably prefers anomoninity. (sp?)

Overall, NER is a pretty well run machine, and it's a pleasure to race with them.

[almracing]

It has been interesting reading the posts about bump drafting, tapping, and not lifting as reasons for metal to metal contact. The problem is that it is hard to determine which contact will cause damage or an accident.

I am growing weary with putting my car back into "race presentable" shape every couple of years after a major incident. It's one thing to be putting my car back together because of a mistake I made (off road excursion, tire wall, etc), but it is frustrating to put my car back together because of someone else's mistake or misjudgement. (see Memorial Day Crash topic)

Renting was also an interesting topic that was brought up, although I think it is the opposite in terms of carelessness. Since my car has not been available this season I opted to rent a ride for a couple of weekends. But I was much more cautious during those races because it was not my option to repair the car. I was going to pay full shop rates to have dents fixed. For that reason, I drove with my fingers crossed for much of the time.

Self policing and official actions will help deter metal to metal contact. I think people would think twice if they knew that they could be just watching from the infield due to official penalties.

[RKramden]

Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded.[/b]

It is my understanding that you were not unique in that regard.

[Greg Amy]

You know this street goes both ways, right?

Before selecting the link below, let me give you some background. Race situation, competitor is RIGHT ON YOUR ASS just waiting for a mistake. You're coming up on slow traffic. A year and a half ago, you came on someone else, same way. You went left; they went left. You collided, they were hip-checked into the tire wall on the right. Mucho unhappiness ensued (and still does today).

What would you have done?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm5dDQ3YspQ

Point-bys and mirror usage is a good thing...

[lateapex911]

But wait, there's more....

Post the other link, Greg!

In the first vid, yeah, that Triumph is a common sight. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, he is fairly good about getting out of the way...and he has to often. In this case, he needed to be more vigilant seeing the closing speed.It's a good thing that there was room on the inside, and the ruts weren't too deep.

In the second vid, well, LOL......what needs to be said?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jake,

The yellow car is an Alfa. First time we have raced with him this year. As far as 'room', there was none. Greg put 4 off on the inside.

[lateapex911]

Ooops...my mistake. Sorry to the Triumph guy!

It looked like 4 off...lucky there was room...no Armco, and no holes..as in other spots at NHIS.

[Knestis]

...What would you have done? ...
[/b]

Exactly the same thing you did, Greg - only more slowly, probably.

I got put in exactly that same situation last year, ironically by an Alfa but within ITB. He bobbled badly turning up the hill out of the Esses on VIR North. I caught him like crazy at the right toward the top of the hill and was left with just a few options - jump on the brakes, shortcut the apex, or to the LONG way 'round. There were other cars right on my rear bumper and the answer seemed obvious. It only took a nanosecond to decide that I wasn't going to NOT take advantage of his error, instead of getting jumped by those cars behind me.

K

[alfa]

I hope you don't mind one of the subjects of your videos having a voice....I'm the driver of the yellow Alfa.

1. Greg, I saw you there behind me going into the bowl. I debated giving you a point-by on entry but didn't because you were too far back.

2. Greg, You were absolutely going to get a point-by on my left, which was where your first swerve took you...after we passed the rumble strips and I felt it was safe to get out of your way.

3. I am very familiar with racing with much faster cars, I race with Corvettes, Mustangs, Shelbys, etc. pretty much every race, and am very willing, in fact eager to give point-bys to everyone who shows up on my bumper - including Betttencourt, Hunter, and a number of other cars in that very race. However, you need to respect the fact that regardless of the fact that you are leading your race - you do not own the track and I have no intention of doing something that I feel is unsafe to let you by. Nissan and Miata doors and fenders may be a dime a dozen, but 50-year-old Italian steel in good shape is tough to find. If you make the decision to go by without a signal, that means that I don't think it's a safe place and we haven't communicated...so you go at risk. In fact, this weekend, I had a Mustang pass me on the right in the Bus stop at the Glen, without a signal. I held my line and he went by. His decision that it was safe, not mine. He made it safely because I held my line and he felt it was going to be OK.

4. It seems like a simple thing....if you get a point-by take it. If you don't, expect the car you are overtaking to hold their line and you must go by, at your risk, off line. In this case, that would have meant passing me on my left (on the racing surface)....Or, I guess, the agricultural route that you took.

5. My qualification position was in the teens for that race, right in the middle of a bunch of ITA cars. On the grid, I noticed that many of the non-ITA cars had voluntarily given up their grid positions and elected to start at the back of the field due to forecasted carnage in turn one. As I thought about it, I decided to do the same and let the grid clear before I joined the field. In this race, it turns out that I didn't need to move back in the field - but statistically, I think it was the right decision. When a significant number of people are doing this, is there a problem?

The person who posted about maturity is right on...some classes learn to race fast and close without running into each other...I hope you guys do. And I hope when I run production races in the future, we aren't in the same group. I will certainly look at the supps before I register.

[Ed Funk]

I'm in total agreement with Alfa. After viewing the video clip provided by Greg, you made your own choice and got to do some "farming". It's hammered into new drivers, and maybe should be reminded to old drivers, "take your normal line, so the overtaking driver knows what you're doing". I've been at both ends of that deal!! I have chosen to go agricultural to maintain momentum, my choice, not his fault! Also, I expect the other guy to give me room in the corner, regardless if I'm passee or passor, IF we enter the corner together, Alfa entered the corner ahead, it was"his" corner. I would have witnessed for Alfa if there had been an incident and/or a protest.

Of course my opinion is of little consequence because I don't race in ITA, and therefore I suck!! 18 years, approximately 160 sprint races, 4 24 hr racees, 2 12 hour races, a few wins here and there and damn few times when I caused contact probably don't count for much in the opinion category.

Anyway opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and most of them stink!!

[Greg Amy]

I hope you don't mind one of the subjects of your videos having a voice....I'm the driver of the yellow Alfa.[/b]

I/we absolutely do NOT mind; it's the only way to learn. I am glad you are here and reading, and I hope I've given the impression that I do not believe I'm beyond reproach.

The T6 through T9 series is a very complex place to work traffic, for both the passer and passee. The normal line is jinking left, right, then left again, very much like a series of esses (with a blind crest thrown in for kicks). If a passer is not on the ball then pointing someone by "here" could lead to disaster "there" if they hesitate; this puts the passee in a tough situation. To make matters worse in our case, as noted I got burned passing on the left there before, which no doubt complicated my decision process.

From the time we crested the hill braking into T6 I calculated we were going to catch you under the treehouse; from the apex of the corner out I was looking to confirmation that that 1) you saw us, and 2) you had a preferred side for us to pass. In your open car your hand signals can be seen from a LONG way away with very little chance of being confused for rollcage tubes and the like, and I was hoping you would use that.

Unfortunately, I got no signal from you so I had to make a future prediction of your actions based on experience with everyone else I've raced ("Is he going to drive the line? Is he going to move left?") Since there was light to the right of you the very moment I had to commit, that choice was "go right". Fortunately, I make a point of walking all race tracks, and one of the things I look for is escape routes. I had planned for this exact contingency; I knew what I could do and this was exactly what I did.

Other than not indicating you knew we were there and which direction you preferred we pass you did exactly what you should have done, which was drive the line. I *really* wish more people would do that. If everyone did that, then everyone becomes predictable, and passers can act accordingly. The problem is that 50% of the folks will drive the line and the other two-thirds try and move out of the way. I had a 50/50 chance of making the right choice. I only hope I didn't scare the beejesus out of you like I did Andy!

...you need to respect the fact that regardless of the fact that you are leading your race - you do not own the track and I have no intention of doing something that I feel is unsafe to let you by.[/b]

Absolutely. You shouldn't. On the other hand, neither do you "own the track" and you should not feel like you have the right to keep us from passing, should we feel it's safe to do so. Our closing speeds were so high that a little notification goes a long way. If you had pointed left going through or out of the apex of T6 then I would have timed it to allow you to move right (using you as a pick to keep Andy behind me) then motored on. But this is competition: there was no way I was going to brake down to your speed and wait for you to get out of the way. Sorry if this raises the hackles of you and others, but this is competition, not HPDE.

Don't give me the "$5 wooden plaque" speech. Don't care. I do not condone or support intentional contact, but if the very idea of possible body damage gives you (collective "you") the vapors I suggest you get out of W2W competition (or get a Saturn).

Nissan and Miata doors and fenders may be a dime a dozen, but 50-year-old Italian steel in good shape is tough to find.[/b]

Au contraire: NX fenders are unobtainable. However, I don't make driving decisions based on equipment. I would have driven the same if I was in a Ferrari Enzo, it just would have made a different sound.

If you make the decision to go by without a signal, that means that I don't think it's a safe place and we haven't communicated...so you go at risk.[/b]

Au contraire, part deaux: *ALL* passes are done "at your risk" and a point-by does not eliminate that. Further, no one else is required to - or will - be held to your analysis of the situation. This is not an HPDE-type event where a point-by is required for a pass; you as the passee do not 'control the situation'. Passing attempts *will* happen whether you feel they are safe or not, you have no say over them. However, point-bys in competition are one of the tools that you have at your disposal (others include "body language" and driving lines) to minimize the potential of the conflicts. If you believe that a lack of a point-by would - or should - have stopped that pass, then hindsight illustrates that to be folly. If someone is rolling up on you like they were beamed down by the Starship Enterprise then it is absolutely their responsibility to make a safe pass, but is your responsibility to recognize the situation and minimize the conflict potential.

Notifying me a couple of seconds - one second - in advance of our meeting at the same time-space would have done that.

When a significant number of people (join the back of the field), is there a problem?[/b]

I don't see how. In fact, this past weekend at Mid-Ohio NASA made a point of gridding all cars within their class, based on the lap time of the fastest member of the class (e.g. in our case, all FP cars would grid up front, then all ITA cars, then all GP cars, etc). Don't know what I think of that, yet. - GA

[alfa]

I don't think I ever said (or wrote) that you shouldn't pass me anywhere you choose. That's what racing is all about. All I'm saying is don't post video and say "Point-bys and mirror usage is a good thing...", as if I was oblivious to your "right" to that particular part of the track. You can't assume to know what the other driver is thinking unless there is some communication and in this case, there hadn't been. You thought I didn't see you and you were wrong. You thought I wasn't going to give you a point-by and you were wrong.

If I give you a point-by, I am saying that I will take measures to make sure your pass is safe. If I don't give a point-by, you can assume I will not do so. I was prepared to keep well right going under the treehouse, and let both you and Andy pass on my left going into the lefthander - and even into the corner if need be.

I think you missed the part of my post where I mentioned that someone passed me on the right in the bus stop at the Glen this weekend. By "in the bus stop", I mean he was behind me at the 2nd curb and in front of me by the time I went over the 4th curb. I'm fine with that. He had like 600 HP and I have around 120. It was a safe pass, even though I didn't think it would have been when he started going by. However, when I talked to him after the race, his comment was to thank me for keeping my line and leaving the decision to him. The similarities are significant...he knew he would get a point-by in the next turn, he just didn't want to wait because he was leading his race and had a 911 chasing him. I doubt he would have complained if it turned out he had to hop the 4th curbing because he didn't get the pass finished early enough because I know him and he would have realized that it was his decision that caused the eventual outcome.

I don't think I stated that I had any belief that any sort of finger gesture illustrated any sort of control over you - in my mind you as the overtaking driver have 2 choices....make your pass wherever and whenever you choose, and if you make a bad choice - live with the consequences, whatever they may be; or wait for some sort of acknowlegement that I am willing to stay clear of a certain side of the track and let you have it, wherever my ordinary line may be. That's just courtesy. Racing and courtesy do not have to be mutually exclusive, no matter the level of competition.