Engine mods

[Chris Wire]

Alright, the endurance (taking a long time!) project is moving slowly forward. Here's the deal.

I have a motor sitting on the ground waiting for me to pay it some attention. I need the experts to fill up my list of things to do before I attempt to pop this baby into the car. Don't be bashful!

S5 engine - fresh stock rebuild
Turbo oil pump - DONE
Three window rear bearing - DONE

Besides that I'm throwing poop at the wall and hoping it will stick. What's next while it's on the ground?

Shimmed pressure reg?
Thermo pellet?
Pull the 5/6 port sleeves and plug the holes?

I already have ISC pulley, clutch, new clutch master/slave, will have injectors balanced, ISC baffled oil pan, Aeromotive FPR, and some other stuff that escapes me right now.

Any help is greatly appreciated! Especially the trick stuff!

TIA,

[rob22]

Chris- large Garrett Turbo and about 300 pounds less weight so you would at least have a chance of keeping up with the "slowed down" and SIR'd Garcia Bimmer.

"Bosco"

[Chris Wire]

Chris- large Garrett Turbo and about 300 pounds less weight so you would at least have a chance of keeping up with the "slowed down" and SIR'd Garcia Bimmer.

"Bosco"
[/b]

Well originally I was thinking about a street port out of Miami so I could chase Irish Mike down the backstretch at Sebring, then I would add about 40 lbs of birdshot into the right rear qtr panel, and ram air through the right headlamp, but someone talked me out of it!

No one wants to share.....where's the love?!!!

[Chris Wire]

Okay, okay, the fog in my head is getting thicker. I need some racer tape around my head before it explodes!

There are 2 rear oil pressure regulators listed on the Mazdaspeed site with the same identical description, but yet different part numbers:

4801-14-250
4352-14-250

"Replaces the stock secondary (rear) regulator. With the use of a high capacity oil pump, the competition regulator allows oil pressure in the system to reach 105-115 psi. It is recommended to also shim the front regulator 1/8' to ensure that it does not limit system pressure."

And then they further add:

"A less expensive alternative is to use the 3rd gen regulator, N3A1-14-230 which allows 90-100 psi."

So what's the hot ticket? If I am running a turbo oil pump, do I simply run the 3rd gen regulator, or the Mazdaspeed piece? If the Mazdaspeed is the ticket, then which one?

I'm heading to the garage for some racer's tape........which color works best on exploding heads?

[seckerich]

Okay, okay, the fog in my head is getting thicker. I need some racer tape around my head before it explodes!

There are 2 rear oil pressure regulators listed on the Mazdaspeed site with the same identical description, but yet different part numbers:

4801-14-250
4352-14-250

"Replaces the stock secondary (rear) regulator. With the use of a high capacity oil pump, the competition regulator allows oil pressure in the system to reach 105-115 psi. It is recommended to also shim the front regulator 1/8' to ensure that it does not limit system pressure."

And then they further add:

"A less expensive alternative is to use the 3rd gen regulator, N3A1-14-230 which allows 90-100 psi."

So what's the hot ticket? If I am running a turbo oil pump, do I simply run the 3rd gen regulator, or the Mazdaspeed piece? If the Mazdaspeed is the ticket, then which one?

I'm heading to the garage for some racer's tape........which color works best on exploding heads?
[/b]

If you have a stock rebuild with regular apex seals the 3rd gen regulator is fine. If you go with ceramics and plan to spin it real tight then go with the comp piece. If price is the same go with the comp unit. Mazda has the old comp catalog available in pdf form now with some tips that could help you. Pull the 6 port sleeves and toss them. PM me if you want a few more suggestions.

[Eagle7]

I sincerely hope that what we're discussing here is legal, but I can't find where the GCR lets us do it. Help me out.

[GKR_17]

I'm certainly not a Mazda expert, but since you call it a "Turbo" oil pump it almost certainly isn't legal. I wonder if the same is true of the "Three window bearing" as well. Care to explain what vehicles on your spec line came with these parts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm certainly not a Mazda expert, but since you call it a "Turbo" oil pump it almost certainly isn't legal. [/b]

ITCS page 5.

h. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."

[GKR_17]

ITCS page 5.

h. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."
[/b]

I agree, a different oil pickup is legal. However, he said oil pump, so as far as I see it the question still stands.

[lateapex911]

yea, if I read this right, the issue is a spring internally that determines the pressure sent out to the engine. Changing the spring results in higher oil pressure, which is better for a racing engines longevity.

It appears that such a mod fits the (oh God, here comes that word) intent of what the rulesmakers were desirous of, but it isn't specifically allowed, at least to my eye.

If I knew my competitor had one, would I protest? Uh...no.

[GKR_17]

If you have a stock rebuild with regular apex seals the 3rd gen regulator is fine. If you go with ceramics and plan to spin it real tight then go with the comp piece. If price is the same go with the comp unit. Mazda has the old comp catalog available in pdf form now with some tips that could help you. Pull the 6 port sleeves and toss them. PM me if you want a few more suggestions.
[/b]

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.

Maybe Jake should talk to Andy about reading into the 'intent' of the rules. I've been scolded on that one before.

Grafton

[steve s]

let me try and explain this as simple as can be .
because we race mazdas and this club loves mazdas we get to change oil pumps etc.
that's the short answer.
heck they even allow us to use the lightest rotating assemblies [mix & match ] then balance them to build these killer engines.
p.s. we are even allowed to use the lightest or if we wish the higher compression rotors to make more h.p.
i can go further but you get the point race a mazda and you can do pretty much anything even if it's not allowed because nobody will protest you. :P
just kidding i hope someone out there can explain better than i did.

[seckerich]

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.

Maybe Jake should talk to Andy about reading into the 'intent' of the rules. I've been scolded on that one before.

Grafton
[/b]

I have all but quit posting any on this board because some jerk will either call you a cheater, liar, or both in the same post. Oil pressure is by the 10 psi/per 1000 rpm just like most motors. If you twist one tight you need more pressure. You care to say your BMW has stock oil pressure? Won't live long will it. The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL. PS--they also put them in the turbo cars but we don't use the turbo Try to get your facts straight before you call someone a cheater. I guess Chris see's why there was silence in the beginning for his information request--it has now returned.

[dspillrat]

Dang Nab-it, Now I knows why those tail lights on that Black car get smaller in the turns, tighter cheTER SPRINGS!!!....Wait ..no I mean in the straights....wait ...oil pump springs? ... Never Mind....

David

[seckerich]

Dang Nab-it, Now I knows why those tail lights on that Black car get smaller in the turns, tighter cheTER SPRINGS!!!....Wait ..no I mean in the straights....wait ...oil pump springs? ... Never Mind....

David
[/b]

Busted!! I'm having fun hanging in the Zcar forum--you guys are a lot more fun. Springs are not the only thing wound too tight here.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree, a different oil pickup is legal. However, he said oil pump, so as far as I see it the question still stands. [/b]

What if the pickup and the pump are one piece?

[GKR_17]

I have all but quit posting any on this board because some jerk will either call you a cheater, liar, or both in the same post. Oil pressure is by the 10 psi/per 1000 rpm just like most motors. If you twist one tight you need more pressure. You care to say your BMW has stock oil pressure? Won't live long will it. The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL. PS--they also put them in the turbo cars but we don't use the turbo. Try to get your facts straight before you call someone a cheater. I guess Chris see's why there was silence in the beginning for his information request--it has now returned.
[/b]

Steve,

Assuming you're talking to me, please read my posts again and quote where I called anyone a cheater. I openly admit that I don't know much about the rotary engine, and asked what vehicles on the spec line came with the parts in question. The first responses I got were poor excuses. Your last statement is somewhat better, but honestly not a lot. Simply put, any parts from the 3rd gen motor (or comp piece as the other option you list) aren't legal for ITS cars unless they came in the earlier models as well. If they came in the GTU, then fine. As far as our BMW, I didn't personally do the build as I have previously, but as I understand it, the oil system is completely stock except for an added guage and higher preassure light sensor.

Andy: even if the oil pickup is integrally attached to the oil pump, the pump must reamain stock in my interpretation.

Grafton

[C. Ludwig]

The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL.
[/b]

Nope. The only thing different about the S and any other 5-lug car was the 4.30 gear and the .756 OD.

Chris, back to your original question. IMO you don't need the turbo pump. Plenty of IT engines survive on the NA pump. Lots of 12A engines survive extended high revs on their much smaller pump. If you want an all out engine plan on spending the money on new rotor housings. If you plan to spin it past 7500 look at something other than ferrous metal apex seals. Either carbon or cost-no-object ceramic. It's already been mentioned but there is some great info in the back of the Mazdaspeed catalog on clearances for seals and bearings. The RB catalog also has some great info. Travel over to www.nopistons.com and check out the Engine Building forum. There are some great tips on there as well.

[Chris Wire]

Chris, back to your original question. IMO you don't need the turbo pump. Plenty of IT engines survive on the NA pump. Lots of 12A engines survive extended high revs on their much smaller pump. If you want an all out engine plan on spending the money on new rotor housings. If you plan to spin it past 7500 look at something other than ferrous metal apex seals. Either carbon or cost-no-object ceramic. It's already been mentioned but there is some great info in the back of the Mazdaspeed catalog on clearances for seals and bearings. The RB catalog also has some great info. Travel over to www.nopistons.com and check out the Engine Building forum. There are some great tips on there as well.
[/b]

Thanks, Chris. That's good to know.

I'm glad I asked these questions while the engine is still in a box. Issues like this found later would be much harder to correct. The turbo oil pump was put in buy the builder who, admittedly, does not normally do racing engine rebuilds. I guess it is common on the street cars, I don't know.

Thanks to all who replied, I appreciate the input. I will gladly correct any irregularities prior to installation. No sense starting out on the wrong foot.

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.[/b]

Well, I think it really is. Think of it in terms of piston-to-wall clearance, or rod/main bearing clearance in a piston engine. Higher pressure in these areas aids longevity.

[GKR_17]

I didn't mean that it wouldn't improve longevity, I meant that it isn't the only thing improved. It's quite possilbe that with the extra oil pressure you could extend rev limit a little more. And aparantly you want the extra pressure when using the high dollar apex seals, which are surely used to improve power.

Grafton